Should CCSM Be Purged from the Ubuntu Repos?

CCSM in Ubuntu 12.04

The headline to this article might sound inflammatory but it’s a question currently being debated on the Ubuntu Desktop mailing list.

Ubuntu’s Jorge Castro makes the case for ‘jettisoning’ the tool from the the Ubuntu Universe repositories (i.e. removing it from the Ubuntu Software Centre):

“With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and …basic configuration in the control panel I’d like to propose the removal of compizconfig-settings manager. 

I don’t mean “stop telling people to use it” or “add a warning”, I mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better tested or doesn’t break people’s configuration.”

Bad Tool is bad

If you’ve used the CompizConfig-Settings-Manager then you’ll know that it is a jumbled draw full of odds and ends. Although it sits under the guise of a ‘tweaking app’ it’s actually not; it’s a settings app.

But CCSM is assumed to be ‘safe’ by many simply because it’s where one adjusts the “blingy stuff”.  I suspect that few users change schemas ad-hoc in gconf-editor or via the Terminal without expecting consequence.

It may house the ‘Unity’ desktop plugin (which if unchecked will ‘break’ your desktop) but it also plays home to a variety of other options that Ubuntu no longer supports or uses – many of which conflict or break Unity when enabled.

When you factor in the growing array of well-designed Unity tweaking tools, such as MyUnity and Ubuntu Tweak, that offer the same functionality but lack the potential for screwing up the desktop, the case for keeping CCSM around, flaws and all, is weakened.

Only Discussion

Before anyone grabs a well-used pitchforks let me stress that this idea is currently nothing more than a discussion for now – but it’s one that does provides food for thought: Should the Ubuntu repositories stock itself with tools capable of breaking users desktops so easily?

The destructive Computer Janitor application was removed from Ubuntu 11.10 for this very reason.

But some might argue that there are already packages in the USC that also have the potential to do damager – so where does one draw the line?

Not Just Unity

For all of CCSM’s superfluous settings there are also a number that many users rely on to use their desktop, as Alan Bell put forward in a response: -

“How do we turn on and configure compiz enhanced zoom for visually impaired users? (turning it on by default would be cool, super+mousewheel to activate and mouse polling set to 15ms please) we have some text cursor tracking arriving for this soon too.

How do we turn on the negative and color filter and opacity/brightness/saturation plugins for users who like to use them or for application developers to test applications to see how they would be perceived by colorblind users?”

Perhaps Ubuntu should beef-up its accessibility settings pane, or a dedicated accessibility settings app created that houses these?

A number of ‘solutions’ have been put forward, including this one by Jo-Erlend Schinstad which addresses the fact that not everyone using Ubuntu uses Unity: -

” …an acceptable compromise would be to remove Unity from ccsm. Since Unity currently seems to be the main attraction to ccsm, this might solve the problem without creating any problems for other Compiz users.”

And then there’s the question of ‘Power Users’. Those who know what they’re doing with CCSM and are aware of the risks. Should they be ‘penalised’ for less-clued up users breaking their desktops by playing with a power tool?

Chris Coulson chimes in: -

“I don’t think power users will really miss something like CCSM. Power users will just use the same tools that they have always used to tweak advanced settings in other applications.

CCSM isn’t a power user tool, but a loaded gun packaged in to a graphical UI that gives novice users a false sense of security.”

Quality Control

Regardless of whether you use CCSM or not the ‘issue’ of whether it should be placed out of the reach of novice users centers around one very valid point: making the Ubuntu experience better for the end user.

And what could be better than replacing CCSM with a tool that’s safer, easier and, to be shallow, nicer to look at?

Ditching CCSM from the Software Centre wouldn’t mean the end of the app as it could be installed from a PPA. Neither would it mean the loss of configurability in Ubuntu but rather the loss of potential instability on user desktops.

With apps like MyUnity, Ubuntu Tweak and the recent options added to the System Settings pane in Precise, configuring Ubuntu has never been easier, or safer, to do. 

What’s your opinion?

Related posts:

  1. Precise Adds New Unity Configuration Options
  2. Unity Global Menu To Become Optional in Ubuntu 12.04?
  3. Ubuntu Unity 2D gets a PPA for Maverick and Natty testers
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  • Anonymous

    I do think that CCSM should come with something new… like new effects and suff. A new CCSM, improved. But not removed .

    • Freddi

      CCSM made sense when Ubuntu had almost no default configuration for Compiz. People chose either expo, desktop wall, cube etc. and their desktops (of the same OS) looked inconsistent.

      No that Unity fiddles around in Compiz, there is a good default configuration but if you change something you can break a lot.

      In fact I haven’t needed to do any changes to window management. However I still like to add some animations where Ubuntu lacks being stunning and surprising (burning Brasero, beaming Back-in-Time etc).

      I wouldn’t be happy if this freedom is removed.

  • aperson

    `rm` is a potentially damaging program.  Should that be purged from the default install?

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      When you use `rm` you know it’s purpose is to remove files. 

      When you use CCSM you think you’re using a configure tool, what you’re really getting is a tool that might break your desktop. Instead of shipping the broken tool we should ship one that works.

      • Anonymous

        True. I mean, what’s the point in comparing terminal programs to gui ones??? The idea behind the ideal gui interface is that there is nothing the user can do to totally screw up their install, but the term application is there to give complete control, and so allow you to bust your install.

      • http://twitter.com/icalper Ivan Calderon Perez

        I think ‘aperson’ was being sarcastic…

      • http://twitter.com/HeartAtttack Elie [M]

        i totally agree. people are being insane about this. I support removing it till a better one comes along.

      • aperson

        Yes, and when you install CCSM, you know its purpose is to configure Compiz.  Users can do just about anything to hose their system.  Removing a tool just because an uneducated user decides to bork their desktop with it is just plain silly.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          You /think/ the purpose is to configure Compiz, but it does a poor job at that. The user hasn’t made a decision to bork their desktop, the tool is buggy and does that for them.

          You can be an “expert” on ccsm all you want, it will still randomly break, no matter how “educated” you might be on it or not. 

          • Anonymous

            Example?  CSSM hasn’t had issues like that since the early days of post-Beryl and Emerald.  It’s stable for what it should be used for – activating wobbly windows and changing things that Unity devs didn’t provide any other means for changing.

        • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

          You don’t actually have to be uneducated for ccsm to make things interesting for you. For instance, it’s not uncommon for users to use the mouse wheel to scroll. And ccsm’s window is scrollable, but you must pay close attention to where the pointer is, because otherwise, you might change a setting that causes general discomfort. It is things like that which makes ccsm such a big problem. 

          • Satchit Bhogle

            I believe Allan Lowe just fixed that. Hooray for bug fixes :)

      • http://twitter.com/cedr cedr

        The comparison is totally valid. Both programs can do damage if you don’t know how to use them properly. A big warning label in the Ubuntu Software Center would be an appropriate solution, directed at people who don’t know any better… however, making it more difficult to install CCSM harasses many people who do know what they’re doing. Kind of draconian.

        Fortunately the damage done by CCSM can be undone. What’s really needed is a more elegant recovery process for Unity crashes & config mistakes.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          Except CCSM can cause damage even if you’re using it properly; which for most users means a reinstall. 

          There really does need to be a more elegant config process, and we can do that with tools that work instead of ones that do not.

      • Wasif Hasan

        Though I am not a Unity fan, but i support your argument of removing ccsm considering the fact that Ubuntu targets “beginners”. Long time users like me and power users might have to take this brunt for the sake of new users who once burned with ccsm are probably never gonna return to Ubuntu or linux in general.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          Power users deserve tools that work too, and we’re starting to get those now, so we don’t need ccsm anymore. 

          • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

             From a pure Unity perspective, we don’t. But though that’s our main shell and focus, it isn’t the only one. There are things that currently can’t — as far as I’m aware — be configured in other ways.

            But this discussion is very valuable, because ccsm is in bad shape, and it needs the attention.

      • Anonymous

        Works, that is, for the tiny subset of functionality that you deem relevant.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          The default install of something we ship to millions of people isn’t a “tiny subset”.

          • Anonymous

            I can’t really parse that sentence. Tools like MyUnity offer only a tiny subset of the functionality of CCSM. Hence, MyUnity and its ilk can only be said to work for these limited functions. How often Unity is shipping isn’t really a relevant figure in this line of reasoning.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            Oh I misunderstood. As I said in another comment, we should fix those tools up instead of wasting time with a tool that is a dead end.

    • https://profiles.google.com/phonixor phonixor

      yeah, you make a valid point…

      we should remove the user from this equation, that would solve everything! (skybuntu is born!)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4MKVHJIXLFF4SNVEJSFX5G67TM Raw

    Wow, this really shows just how much Canonical is taking away choice and cornering users into doing what Canonical tells them to.

    Copying the dock, left-aligned window controls, universal menu bar…OK, Canonical, maybe you were just imitating your hero, Apple. Imitation is a form of flattery, so whatever.

    But to copy even their disregard for users and their attempts to dictate how their software will be used? This is nonsensical and evil.

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      I am not advocating taking away choice, I am advocating replacing a known broken tool with one that works. 

      I would like the choice of having a configure tool that works.

      • lostsync

        I think most people would like the choice of choosing what works for them instead of having that decision made for them.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          By that argument we shouldn’t ever fix bugs because people should have a choice to use buggy software

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            I think his argument is more in line with “the customer is always right,” and in the case of Unity, the “customer” has spoken out against it. Look through these comments and see all the references to Mint and Cinnamon. Cinnamon is what happens when a developer responds to the customer. Killing CCSM–something that allows people to tweak their UI at their own risk–does in fact give the user fewer choices. This is a nanny state response, and I think the comments in this post speak to that.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            What about the choice of people who want a working computer? Who speaks for them? 

            People should be able to configure their machines without risk of breaking their desktop.

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            The people who want a working computer install Ubuntu 10.04. When that reaches EOL, who knows.

          • lostsync

            No, my argument states nothing of the sort. You’re not talking about fixing bugs. You’re talking about giving up on something that a lot of people have used successfully for years, because it has the potential to cause a disruption if used improperly. You’re talking about forcibly removing choice from users. You’re trying to babysit new users at the expense of old ones. Anyone with a few years of experience with Linux has borked their xorg.conf or done something similar and we’re all still here and while it may have cost us some time, we came out on the other side with even more experience. I’m really not sure what the advocates of this potential move are so afraid of.

            The thing is, all this is going to do is create an extra step for anyone wishing to use this software. I can’t imagine that you actually believe that CCSM wouldn’t be put in some PPA immediately and that a quick google search wouldn’t place some mention of this fact at the very top of the results. Removing it from the repos is futile. If the tool is causing problems, update the tool or the software that it is conflicting with to avoid said problems. Just pretending that it doesn’t exist isn’t going to solve anything for anyone.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            I am talking about fixing bugs. ccsm is abandoned and has seen no improvements in a long time.  And it’s not about taking away choice, it causes disruption when used properly, that’s not a power user tool, that’s a broken tool. 

            I’m glad you brought up xorg.conf, because I for one am glad I never have to edit a xorg.conf any more, that’s progress, not removing choice.

            (And it’s fine if it’s in a PPA, if you’re experienced enough to know how to use CCSM you know how to add a PPA)

      • Joe May

        What’s broken? CCSM or Unity?

        • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

           ccsm is not broken, but it’s way too easy to cause mayhem, even if you pay attention. For instance, scrolling the window might accidentally  cause you to break your desktop.

      • Anonymous

        There is no replacement tool.  There are a few minor configurations for Unity in the new settings panel (and Ubuntu Tweak?) and some compiz stuff in simple-ccsm. But there are many plugins which are managed just through CCSM.

        CCSM worked quiet well for me before Unity. The most dangerous thing about it that I remember is the ability to disable window borders — but re-enabling them was just as easy.

        If the CCSM package is removed, should the extra plugin packages be removed as well?

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4MKVHJIXLFF4SNVEJSFX5G67TM Raw

        And what of people who use Xubuntu, or who want to use Compiz with gnome-shell? Their desktops aren’t in danger because of ccsm. Only Unity is in danger.

        You advocate removing the option for the user to use ccsm. This is Apple telling people “Trust us, our products are best, and they’re best if you use them how we tell you to.” Give the users a bit of a break. If I want Xubuntu, I want Compiz with it, and I want the GUI to configure the options. If Unity doesn’t work with CCSM, then create something else ALONGSIDE CCSM that is totally compatible with Unity.

        That way you can have your “choice of having a configure tool that works” without taking away other people’s choices unnecessarily in the process.

        • Seventh Reign

          Actually it is NOT only Unity that is in danger.  ccsm can bork any desktop if the user changes the wrong setting(s).

        • http://jeremy.bicha.net/ Jeremy Bicha

          You can’t use compiz with gnome-shell.

          Desktops in danger? Really?

      • Anonymous

        Sorry if you posted this elsewhere, but what’s that “tool that works” you’re mentioning?

        I mean, is Ubuntu plannning to introduce a replacement for CCSM? That’d be the right thing to do, but MyUnity or UbuntuTweak are not really replacements for CCSM.

      • Cliff Wells

        Agreed.  But where is this awesome tool that replaces CCSM with, say at least 25% of the functionality?  When it’s here, you’ll get no argument from me.  Until then, CCSM is what we’ve got.

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      Also, I happen to work for Canonical but I don’t make decisions like this (I work on server community stuff actually). 

      The reason I brought this up is because the tool is horrible and hurts users. (Anyone could have brought this up.)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GE4EYP3QOQ246PLG2Y2DOD2NIQ Dr. Fly

    CCSM makes it super easy to break your desktop nowadays, but I still think it comes down to poor compatibility between Unity and the other Compiz plugins. That should be fixed properly.

    Plus, if they get rid of CCSM, how am I supposed to enjoy my wobbly windows!?

    • Hreinn Jónsson

      wobbly can be added in ubuntu-tweak only using it now.

  • http://twitter.com/dr3mro dr3mro

    this is all wrong .. ccsm is important as it controls compiz the window manager of unity shell .. should remove troublesome plugins and conf but not remove it all

    • http://omgubuntu.co.uk/ Joey-Elijah Sneddon

      CCSM isn’t installed by default; so it’s not like they’re taking away something that’s already there.

  • Atermoon

    Quick! Remove the terminal from the repos before someone dooms their machine! Jesus… 

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      What if you ran “ls” in the terminal and it did a “dd” instead? You’d think your terminal was broken! 

      • https://launchpad.net/~frederik-elwert Fredo

        CCSM works for many use cases, it just doesn’t work well for Unity. I like to adjust my keybindings for the scale plugin, and there are other details one can easily tweak with CCSM, and without breaking one’s computer.

        I think removing Unity from CCSM would be a good option: Novice users who just want to tweak Unity can use the system settings or other tweak tools. And power users who know what CCSM is for can continue to use it.

        • Anonymous

           Maybe CCSM needs a redesign designed specifically for Unity.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GE4EYP3QOQ246PLG2Y2DOD2NIQ Dr. Fly

            A CCSM fork might not be that bad, actually.

        • http://anubeon.tumblr.com Lee Hyde

          Quite right. In my experience it’s unity, as implemented, that is the weak link here. I’ve never experienced any issues before Unity, and I’ve avoided unity because of its various incompatibility.

          Would it not be possible to hide plug-ins and/or options that are incompatible with Unity (for the time being) *IF* and only if Unity is enabled. Surely many if not all of these compatibility issues have been reported and/or are discoverable.

          • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

             That’s just plain wrong. There’s nothing special about Unity in this regard. Nothing very wrong about ccsm either. But it needs attention. It’s particularly the widgets that are way too easy to activate by accident (and you don’t get any feedback when you do so).

          • Anonymous

            I disagree. Unity breaks very easily when you turn on plugins in ccsm that work great withUnity turned off.

          • http://hector-macias.blogspot.com Hector Macias Ayala

            Gnome 2 was just as buggy in my PC, I was so sick and tired of it.

        • http://twitter.com/di0nysys Andrew Smith

          I have zero complaints about the tool, it works great for me. 

          • https://plus.google.com/105117194061518195319/ Shahed Faisal

            +1

      • http://perot.me/ Etienne Perot

        You don’t have to ship it. Putting it in the repositories doesn’t mean it is shipped, it just means it is available.

      • Cliff Wells

        Eh? It’s worked fine for at least a couple of years now?  What did you break?

      • https://launchpad.net/~bazonbloch Bazon

        Strange, before Unit was there, CCSM worked like a charm…   …since then, nearly every change leads to a compiz restart. which isn’t toooooo bad anyway, as I don’t change those settings to often.

        and I don’t know how to change screen edge actions and other personal settings like displaying the window titles (as https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/734253 isn’t fixed yet), desktop size, anomations and other stuff without CCSM.

        so PLEASE LET CCSM STAY!
        in fact, it’s one of the best tools in ubuntu.

        • Adrian Wechner

           what a lie. ccsm itself worked always and works still perfect. the plugins do not like each other. before and now.

          • Anonymous

            The only plugin that doesn’t like others is Unity. I tested them all many times and even plugins for the same thing work with each other.

          • http://www.frothingthefrap.com/ Shannon Black

            actually ccsm has always been like tempremental woman with hormonal issues… true story .. sometimes enabling one effect and then reenabling the one that it disabled (hoping that it will disable the effect you enabled) would render the entire desktop environment useless, to the point id have to log into XFCE and reinstall the GNOME desktop (Unity these days) … i’ve done this mistake countless times, and its safe to say that CCSM is not broken, but its not safe for the average-joe .. i’m pretty sure CCSM will be in a PPA, and that would make more sense, because average users won’t know what a PPA is

        • http://twitter.com/MotionShot Heimen Stoffels

          What a lie. CCSM started to bug with 0.9-release, that has nothing to do with Unity.

      • https://launchpad.net/~cscarney ~cscarney

        I’m not sure where you get the idea that “CCSM doesn’t work”.  It does exactly what it is designed to do, which is to set any possible combination of compiz plugin settings.   It’s valuable because compiz has lots of useful/fun/interesting features that aren’t available in well-supported configurations.

        If the alternative tweak tools were actually better for this use case, everyone would choose those tools instead and we wouldn’t need to have this discussion.  That’s not the case yet — compiz can do a lot of stuff acceptably well that can’t be accessed any other way.

      • http://johannpopper.myopenid.com/ Johann Popper

        You’re talking about a fundamental redefinition of the Ubuntu official repositories. If we go by your standard, almost everything but the default application set could be justifiably removed because they “break” Unity. The fact is, the implementation of Unity is the problem, and you want every piece of software to work around it. For example, there are many apps in the official repositories whose icons don’t appear in the Unity Dash app list, or whose windows are not themed, or for which the overlay scrollbars don’t work or the Global Menu is broken (like LibreOffice!!!). That’s “broken” from the perspective of the user; should you therefore remove Chromium and the best office suite from the repositories? We’ve already heard over the last year “discussion” about banning the use of PPAs for normal users because it’s too dangerous. If the official repositories are no longer to be a universe of all that open source has to offer, a free space for the development of applications, etc., why should we trust that PPAs will continue to be a viable option? The average user won’t even know what CCSM is, never mind install it and play around with it. Well, the same logic applies to PPAs, which the average user will know nothing about unless they decide to do research on it themselves. If your standard were applied to PPAs, users would similarly be prevented from using them. All unnecessary totalitarianism. Why not simply block CCSM from appearing in the Ubuntu Software Center? Make the software center the filter,  while still allowing knowledgeable users to install Synaptic, and thence access all the uncensored software. Otherwise, there will be a huge proliferation of PPAs, and Ubuntu will completely lose control of the ecosystem.

        • http://jeremy.bicha.net/ Jeremy Bicha

          Um, packages get removed from Debian and Ubuntu all the time. Here’s stuff removed in January alone: http://ftp-master.debian.org/removals.txt

          And being horribly broken is most definitely a valid reason to remove something from the repositories. The question still open for debate is where CCSM in its current condition falls into this category. And of course, removals aren’t permanent; apps can be fixed and put back in the repos.

          • http://johannpopper.myopenid.com/ Johann Popper

            Irrelevant. A package is not necessarily an application, like CCSM, which is a plugin manager. That plugins are sometimes broken or incompatible with other plugins (Unity) wouldn’t cause you to remove the manager, but fix the plugins. Besides, people successfully use CCSM for other DEs, like those of some of the official variants, which would now suffer because of a Unity plugin incompatibility. That is silly and puts unnecessary primacy on the default Ubuntu, unnecessarily limiting the other variants.

            If we are to regard the user as helpless in regard to CCSM, then how can anyone justify keeping KDE apps in the same official repositories? How is the ordinary ignorant user going to understand that an entire DE is a dependency? Confronted with, say, KDE System Settings in their app list, surely in there is yet another danger for Unity stability.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          There’s a difference between a tool not working right and having bugs (like the overlay scrollbars or global menu) and having a tool that completely breaks the user desktop without any way to recover. 

          Like this: http://i.stack.imgur.com/9JClV.png

          • http://twitter.com/zzecool zzecool

            Reading all your comments im sure by now that you are an IDIOT simple as that .

            CCSM is the manager everything you see there are plugins  , if a plug in have a problem or a bug we fix the plugin , we dont remove the manager……  

            Other than that the problem that you are experience its a UNITY PROBLEM not CCSM problem .

            Try to type using alt – f2    ”unity –reaplace”     8 in 10 times unity will crash and you are left with an empty wallpaper like your ss ..    Unity is the broken plugin put that deep  in your mind  for the love of god. 

          • Anonymous

            alt – f2 doesn’t work when you don’t have a window manager running.

          • http://johannpopper.myopenid.com/ Johann Popper

            You’re probably right. I’m sure you know more about it than anyone here, especially me. Thank you for looking out for the common users; Ubuntu is made for people who want their OS to just work. 

      • http://profiles.google.com/mpnordland Micah Nordland

        That’s why CCSM is there. To allow people to break stuff. That’s one of the best ways to learn, by fixing your own mistakes. Adding other, “Unity Specific” configuration tools is fine, and the solution of removing Unity from CCSM is a good idea. But removing something just because it doesn’t play nice with all that you want it to be takes away a valuable tool for learning how the OS works. 

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          What do you learn by breaking compiz? 

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GE4EYP3QOQ246PLG2Y2DOD2NIQ Dr. Fly

            I learned how to use the command line just to get my graphics to work on my old desktop when I tried Ubuntu 9.04 out for the first time as a replacement to Windows XP.

            I know that’s not something the average user will want to put up with, nor is it a good impression. But really, I liked Ubuntu well enough from the start that I was determined to make it work on my system.

          • Glaasje

            How you break it and how you can fix it… ;)

      • Anonymous

        Actually i dont know if just removing it from repos would solve the issue.

        Anyone who installs ccsm usually follows a guide, and someone will always put up some ppa or even download it somewhere (or unofficial tools).

        i think a good addition to the proposal would be to be able to restore defaults.

        gconftool-2 –recursive-unset /apps/compiz-1
        gconftool-2 –recursive-unset /apps/compizconfig-1
        unity –resetA command like that usually restores both compiz and unity.

        Also not only ccsm could potentially change compiz settings, but scripts and programs (official, unofficial or malware), so having a way for automatically detect changes and asking to restore defaults would be something to consider.

        If there’s a problem and defaults to the 2d session, you could have something like a message telling the user about an error on the 3d version and if they would like to try restoring defaults. Would make unity that much bullet proof.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          It solves the issue because putting it in a PPA the user knows the decision is theirs to make. Having a tool in the distribution itself that breaks the desktop is totally unexpected behavior.

          • Anonymous

            well it wont stop people from reporting problems, but it is the quick fix.

            but if you want a more permanent solution having a repair/restore option for unity/compiz within ubuntu’s safe/restore mode. Would be ideal.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            Sure it would, launchpad doesn’t accept bug reports from PPAs, it would at least finally allow the team to work on real bugs like crashers rather than wading through piles of bugs about unsupported plugins.

          • http://hector-macias.blogspot.com Hector Macias Ayala

            What a troll you are, installing from official repos is my own decision too.

            I just cant come up with the right words to describe people like you.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            There’s no need to be rude, you can agree to disagree if you want. 

      • Martin Owens

         I didn’t think we were shipping it. I thought it was in the repositories and if we start removing broken software from universe we’ll end up with a hand full of well tested apps and nothing more.

        Most of the apps are horribly broken, just look at poor transmageddon, the debian maintainer couldn’t even be bothered to bump the deps properly and now it’s borked until Ubuntu catches up with debian testing and the bug goes silent again.

        In fact Mark himself is fond of shipping broken software as the default install in order to increase developer participation and focus community efforts into fixing it. unless you thought Unity was finished and completely fine in 11.04 and a brilliant choice for the desktop desktop for the novice.

        • http://twitter.com/MotionShot Heimen Stoffels

          Having something in the repositories is “shipping”.

          The mail carrier who has all the packages ordered at Amazon is also a shipper.

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            Terrible analogy. The Amazon warehouse itself is not a shipper. It just stores stuff.

      • Anonymous

        Could you or someone else explain what it is that people do in ccsm to break the entire system? I don’t think ccsm has ever caused me these kinds of problems. I’ve seen you respond to others saying “good for you” but not explaining how these things happen. If we know the problem, there are people here who could help fix this tool!

        • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

          Did you notice that nobody wants to answer this question? Here’s the secret: Canonical doesn’t want CCSM to be fixed. The reason Jorge Castro makes the same argument over and over is not just because he’s a zealot, it’s because they want to be the ones who have complete ownership of the settings module. They want to be the ones who can accept/reject patches. Canonical wants to “own” more of the software. The same thinking applies to Unity, I’m guessing.

          Think about it, what takes more time? Building an alternate to CCSM from scratch? Or Maintaining the already-existing CCSM? Why else would Canonical argue to get rid of something that works 95% of the way in favor of creating something brand new that “has as many options”? (And let’s face it, that will never happen. Any alternative to CCSM will not contain nearly as many options and configurations)

          • http://twitter.com/MotionShot Heimen Stoffels

            Whether or not CCSM is broken, I don’t think people would be flooding Launchpad with bug reports non-unity regarding CCSM just for fun…

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            Oh, that’s me. My bad. I love creating multiple accounts and submitting fake tickets. It’s my idea of a good time.

      • http://hector-macias.blogspot.com Hector Macias Ayala

        CCSM does work for many of us, stop this freaking religious impositions over what the rest of us should or shouldnt do.

        “People should be allowed to configure their computer without breaking it unless they want to break it.”

        Just what it is today. Leave us alone.

      • Anonymous

         CCSM does not ship with ubuntu, its personal choice if you install it.  Its damn right stupid if you install it and not know what its for and how to use it. Then your gonna break something.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          Ok this is my last post since people obviously aren’t reading what I am posting.

          CCSM breaks things even if you know what you are doing. That’s not a user being stupid, that’s a tool that is broken.

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            How could people not understand what you are saying? You say the same thing in every single comment! No matter what anyone says, whether it be a suggestion (restore points for compiz) or a comment about Unity actually being the problem, you offer the same canned response. This belies some sort of ulterior motive for Canonical.

            When Unity was first released and was the buggiest thing the world had ever seen (booting to a blank screen on a fresh install), the response was “wait, it’ll get better,” but when CCSM starts interfering with Unity, the response is “it’s broken.” Within these comments are a myriad of different, sensible responses and suggestions. Your response to each and every one of them are the same Canonical talking points. Worse than a politician.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            My posts all read the same because I am answering the same question over and over again. 

            And like I’ve said already, I am not on the desktop team and I don’t make any decisions concerning the desktop, I posted because I am concerned that we ship such a broken tool. This has nothing to do with me being employed at Canonical.

            ccsm didn’t “start” interfering with Unity, it’s always been broken, and now that people are making better tools we should use them. 

            I wasn’t aware Canonical had talking points for ccsm though, thanks. :)

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            As stated before, you are responding to a host of different viewpoints with the same comment.

            I also was not aware the Canonical had talking points regarding CCSM until you showed up.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            The reason I am answering over and over is that no one is reading what I am saying and just jumping to conclusions. :)

            As I’ve said before, this has nothing to do with Canonical, I’m not even on the desktop team, I am posting as a person concerned that we would be shipping a broken tool. 

            Also CCSM has been causing problems long before Unity was around, and in that entire time no one has fixed it. So on one hand you have something that we know breaks things with bugs piling up over the course of 6 years, and no one willing to fix it. 

            I am just saying that we shouldn’t do that, that’s not a “Canonical talking point”, to me that’s just common sense.

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            But on one hand you are saying “discussion is good” and on the other hand you are stifling all discussion by repeating the same comment over and over. It’s extremely frustrating to those of us trying to have an actual debate and exchange ideas. Believe it or not, we understand that you think CCSM is “broken.” We get it.

            Assuming there were any sort of comparable alternative to CCSM (gui-based, anyway), no one would be up in arms about this. There is a reason this post has 10x the comments of most other posts on ombubuntu, and the reason is not because people simply won’t listen to you or can’t understand you.

        • http://hector-macias.blogspot.com Hector Macias Ayala

          Couldnt agree more with you, Im sick and tired of people with mental issues about things like this. CCSM is OK for many of us, its downright stupid to think youre obligued to use something, just leave it alone, or patch it.

      • dakira

        I wrote this elsewhere, but here’s a problem for you: Many people I know have REALLY bad vsync issues with Unity. They fix them by opening CCSM and setting a correct refresh-rate in the Composite-plugin. Many people also like to use “hot-corners” for expo and scale.

        Really.. if you insist, just patch in a big red warning box, but don’t take away a tool just because you don’t like it. I know it’s broken, but many still need it.

    • Anonymous

      Wow you really think that a newbie would know what to type in the terminal to kill their desktop?

      With ccsm all you have to do is press a button and… bye bye desktop.

      • http://twitter.com/andmatand Andrew Anderson

        ccsm isn’t installed by default. The only reason newbies even know to install it is because they read about it on the internet somewhere. They can just as easily read about terminal commands without understanding what they’re really doing and screw up their system.

        • Anonymous

          Not like ccsm believe me.

          • http://twitter.com/quiel90 Strato

            one learns form their fails, doesn’t? then they are learning…

          • https://profiles.google.com/phonixor phonixor

            what they learn is never to get ubuntu again…

            so wrong teaching material

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            Fixing ccsm issues isn’t learning, it’s wasting a person’s time when they could be learning something useful. 

          • http://profiles.google.com/mpnordland Micah Nordland

            @castrojo:disqus  Useful is a relative term, what kind of useful do you refer to? Knowing how to fix one’s desktop when broken is very  useful. For those times when it gets screwed up all on its own. In fact, CCSM can be quite handy when that happens.

          • https://launchpad.net/~halfemptyhero heh

            Really? How about “sudo rm -rf /usr”?

            I think that’s just a bit worse than ccsm.

          • https://launchpad.net/~exeleration-g Exeleration-G

            Out of interest, I entered that command in a terminal. I don’t see what would be the problem with it.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GE4EYP3QOQ246PLG2Y2DOD2NIQ Dr. Fly

            I prefer `sudo rm -rf /` myself, but meh, guess that works too.

            NOTE TO NOOBS: Don’t do it unless you feel like having to do a complete reinstall. It’s that much fun.

          • Anonymous

            @openid-90153:disqus  *just heard a large explosion from your machine*

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/GDI7PX6PV644XPUZ3D2RABJ5VY John

             I did it too, whats suppose to happen?

          • Joao Eduardo Hornburg

            “sudo rm -rf /” is a lot of fun. Everyone should do it once :)

        • Anonymous

          And do we have similar number of bugreports from users screwwing their system by usage of terminal as we do for ccsm?

          • http://twitter.com/MotionShot Heimen Stoffels

            The main difference being that the terminal is a default part of Linux, CCSM is just an add-on package in that perspective. The only way to remove the terminal completley is by installing Wayland, but that’s a WIP for now.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IK3GYJHISHUG7XCTGBTMOXTHWU Trigger

        lol.. I know that I have seen sudo apt-get whatever rm – rm somethingelse posted and if it wasnt for the forum, I would have lost everything.. lol

      • Chad Germann

        your not famailire with that old forum prank that has existed on Linux forums seance 1991 that involved getting a user to enter  the command  rm -rf  as root?

    • https://launchpad.net/~rafalcieslak256 rc

      Let’s make ubuntu completely idiot-proof! Remove the terminal, synaptic and other package-managers, preferably the softare-center, the compiler – so that nobody might accidentally install manually anything harmful, and let’s mount everything with no-exec flag. That’s gonna be fun :D And then, finally, we’re switching to Arch™!

      • Patrick Gillespie

        Shuttleworth wants Ubuntu to be as tweak-safe as Windows & Apple. He wants the DE to compete with them. To do that, he has to limit the ability to customize and tweak. To quote Steve Jobs: “People just mess things up.” Shuttleworth gets it and Ubuntu users need to get over it or try a different DE or distro.  Ubuntu is not going to be tweak-safe as long as CCSM is around (or other tweaking-apps).

        Eventually, it’s going to dawn on Shuttleworth (if it hasn’t already) that he’s going to have to create a system similar to Apple’s – one in which there are approved Unity apps and apps that aren’t welcome in the repos – & developers had better toe the line or learn to love PPAs.

        Frankly, Shuttleworth’s transformation into Steve Jobs makes sense (as does the transformation of Ubuntu into something that “just works” like Windows or Mac – cause there’s only so much you can do with it). I won’t be using Unity though (and I don’t). I like to tweak and customize..

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          What does this have to do with Mark? I’m saying we should replace a broken tool with one that works, nowhere in any comment have I said that we should remove customizability or power user tools.

          What we should do is not ship broken ones that we know (not think or guess, /know/) breaks people’s desktops.

          • http://johannpopper.myopenid.com/ Johann Popper

            The fact that this is up for discussion frightens us. CCSM is not a broken tool. It may be incompatible with Unity; if so, put up a warning. Nobody forces a user to install CCSM. Fortunately, nobody forces users to use Unity either. What of people who want to use Compiz (and therefore CCSM) with other desktop environments? If you start pruning the official repositories, there is no reason why the user community should trust that PPAs won’t one day be done away with as well, and for the same reason.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            a) The fact that it’s up for discussion is a good thing; rigorous debate is good for OSS.

            b) It is broken, go look at the bug reports. 

          • http://profiles.google.com/animaletdesequia Dàrent Animaulet

            If it’s broken, repair it. If you don’t know how to repair it, leave it like that.

          • Anonymous

            You fool. Ubuntu is Open Source – if people are that unhappy they can just fork and fix. Not that it’s likely Canonical will try to prevent you from using unofficial repos, for that same reason.

            Take off your tin hat.

          • GonzO Rodrigue

            I don’t care if it gets removed from the official repos or not: if one wants it, one can get it, these days, no matter where it is.

            But to say it “isn’t broken” is a statement of simple ignorance. It *IS* broken.  

            Simple use of the tool makes Compiz crash repeatedly, and sometimes it doesn’t recover until you blow its settings away and start from scratch.  

          • Chris Kildegaard

            How do you know that it’s Compiz itself that it’s broken? Seems like Unity is the thing that’s broken in that it fails to integrate properly with a pre-existing tool. There’s nothing WRONG with Compiz. What’s wrong is that Unity breaks the moment you make the smallest tweak. This is a problem with Canonical’s Unity interface, NOT with Compiz, OR CCSM.

          • Juan Mares

            i agree with jorge. Its good its up for review so we can fix it or get something in there that works. It looks to me that if it does not work with unity then its broken and we should remove it.

          • http://twitter.com/MarianoChavero Mariano

            I think DConf is just more than enough.

          • Anonymous

            I hope you are joking. Try configuring all mouse and keyboard and screen edge shortcuts in gconf…

          • http://twitter.com/zzecool zzecool

            Yeah and meanwhile we are gonna try to reinvent the wheel……..

          • Syzygy

            How is removing ccsm replacing it? What are you replacing it with? 

            I understand that there will be a utility for Unity settings, but what about all the other advanced settings mentioned in the article? 

            I use negative, zoom, keybindings and tiling, and not having a replacement would be extremely frustrating.

          • Tech Support

            Exactly! I use and customize several of the other compiz plugins, without CCSM it would be a royal pain. Plus it gives users the ability to save and restore settings. And CCSM isn’t installed by default, that itself is enough to prevent “noob damage”

            It’s a far from perfect app, but it isn’t broken and a Unity-only tweaker is not a replacement. If you want to go after broken packages, there’s lots that are outright broken in the ubuntu repos:

            nautilus-gksu  (“open in terminal”)
            nautilus-wallpaper
            nautilus-actions

            I’d rather see them fixed than removed, though…

          • AneDijitak

            Why did Ubuntu devs make Unity as a Compiz plugin in the first place, eh?

            Now you want to remove other plugins options in CCSM so that users cannot break Unity plugin???

          • Ryan Farmer

             Why can’t you just resurrect simple-ccsm, which last worked in Compiz 0.8?

            It was pretty hard to do anything that would really mess Compiz up from there.

          • http://profiles.google.com/animaletdesequia Dàrent Animaulet

            You can still use simple-ccsm if you search for the package on the web and install it manually. What I use to do is set the basic with simple-ccsm and then use ccsm to tweak it.

          • Alessandro L

            I think it’s a bit paranoid, so don’t step outside your door, it could be armful and even your own house isn’t safe.
            You can remove Gparted too, user can really mess their pc with that.

            By the way ccsm it’s not just about config unity plugin, you could do a lot of stuff with expo, desktop switch, scale and others, did they already get alternatives for their settings? didn’t noticed.

            Or maybe it’s ok, are you trying to gettin’ numb cos you want to be upstream.

            Maybe integrate the package with some wiki page would educate the users, that’s the way of doing things.

          • Anonymous

            Agree. Thanks.

          • http://twitter.com/zzecool zzecool

            ” Jorge Castro said before about CCSM :

            b) It is broken, go look at the bug reports.  ”

            Are you mentally ill a special child or something ?   Bugs doesn’t mean its broken every package in linux has bugs  lets remove linux all together and purge kernel project  too…. then…Im afraid ppl like you stupidity is the reason behind every problem wordwide.-

          • Gabriel Rousseau

            You may disagree with him, but need to respect him.

          • Anonymous

            ….
            He is saying there are many confirmed bugs showing CCSM renders your desktop unusable.
            Not minor issues.
            An broken Desktop.

          • Anonymous

            It’s not shipped. It’s in the repos. First make a 100% alternative, then maybe remove it if nobody uses the original anymore. Don’t create a limited feature alternative that will be developed later on. This is what Unity was (and to a large extent is) and that was a bad idea. Make the alternative, then offer both, people will start using the better one.

          • Anonymous

            If Google allowed an android app into the Marketplace that broke peoples phones, does that mean Google did not ship the app and is not liable, and therefore should leave it there?

          • http://twitter.com/beirvn Ben

            How about placing a warning in the software centre when trying to install software that is considered broken (large number of critical bugs). Make the user confirm that they still want to use it.

            That way everyone is happy.

          • http://twitter.com/ZacharyJuang Zachary Juang

            You’d be surprised. 

          • Ryan Perez

            Technically there already is, the fact that you have to “use this source” in order to enable the universe repo.  It already requires user confirmation to use.

            Because of that alone I see no reason to remove CCSM.  Yes it is broken but it’s not in the main repo so who cares.  Linux in general is about giving people options.  If you choose to install CCSM then you probably are already aware of the risks of trashing unity and I would hope already have a backup of your home directory in case you need to reinstall.

          • https://launchpad.net/~cody.smith Cody Smith

            I agree there, Jorge, the previous guy had his “pitchfork” pointed in the wrong direction, he should have had it pointed at the hay to feed the animals, jk :P but yeah, just because it’s removed from the USC, doesn’t mean it won’t turn up in PPAs eventually.

          • Anonymous

            I know (not think or guess, /know/) that Unity does break people’s desktops. Please purge it from repos!

          • http://twitter.com/danizmax Daniel

            Totaly agree with removing unsafe tools/apps from ubuntu repos, but must be allowed to install them via unofficial PPAs. Maybe add a single  internet site of third party PPAs, similar to Mozilla extensions page.

            But there is something else that is bothering me that is kinda connected to this topic, that’s canonical is removing power tools or options from one version to another and not replacing them. In the latest ubuntu. I can’t even set a proxy authentication for internet at my office which I consider a basic OS function.

        • Anonymous

          If people mess around tweaking on a mac, they’ll render it useless. Apparently it’s easy to do.

          • Rickard Johansson

            That wouldnt suprise me at all, personal opinion is that macs are overrated!

          • Chad Germann

            Used a Mac lately? The can be quite nice if configured properly allowing one access to both UNIX and proprietary tools on one Machine

            the Mac is great the Hackintosh is slightly better both are if you have a need for it devices however

          • Yaseen Noorani

            Hardware is good but software is way overrated

        • Anonymous

          It is ‘tweak safe’, CCSM is not installed. Do you want people to NOT have the ability to install stuff? Do we need to jailbreak Linux? Do you wear a bicycle helmet?

          • Patrick Gillespie

            Hey, why ask *me*? I’m just the messenger. (Like what I think matters…) I’m just reading the tea leaves; and they tell me Ubuntu users (I use Xubuntu) can expect to see a more “Apple-like” approach to what goes in the “app store”. 

        • https://launchpad.net/~danillo Danillo

          Oh gosh, you make it sound like users were being forced into using CCSM. CCSM is not “around”, it’s in the repositories amidst thousands of other packages. Clueless people are looking for it, installing it, playing with it, and breaking their systems with it it’s because the blogs are telling them to.

          If newbies are using CCSM to tweak aspects of Unity but end up breaking up things it’s because they don’t have that option anywhere else. They will have that once Didier Roche finish bringing the Unity options from CCSM to User Interface in Control Center, so everything will be fine in Precise, and by then the blogs won’t even mention installing that tool anymore.

          I use CCSM quite a lot not only to tweak Ubuntu+Unity but also Xubuntu+Compiz and it never, not even once broke my system to the point of having to reinstall it. It allows me to zoom my desktop, to set hot corners for actions, to add texts to scaled windows, to center windows (I hate windows opening in corners), to set wobbly windows, to add different animations to windows, to switch applications in different ways, to give a cube to Xubuntu, to turn window previews on, to set different wallpapers to my workspaces, etc, and it has some great accessibility options. I’m a freaking Compiz fanboy, and I would miss CCSM a great deal. CCSM may also help people to develop, test, and improve Compiz plugins. Let’s not forget Compiz is not just for Unity.

          If all the customization options for tweaking Unity  under CCSM (ALL of them, even the most trivial) are transfered to User Interface, I think it would be reasonable to take the “Ubuntu Unity plugin” from CCSM, but there’s absolutely no need to nuke it. Taking away the major tool to tweak Ubuntu’s window manager because it has bugs is not reasonable.

          I also disagree with limiting our ability to customize and tweak. What needs to be done is to make sure only people who know what they are doing and the risks involved with it do it.

          And good grief, please, we don’t need no Steve Jobs, thank you.

        • Anonymous

          Hmm, you’re right. But still, there wouldn’t be any harm in placing them in a seperate repository (like main, multiverse, universe, …) and just disabling that one by default, would it? Or we could do something like a user repository, like a huge PPA which is included in ubuntu by default, but disabled by default as well, and which users can contribute to.

        • http://hector-macias.blogspot.com Hector Macias Ayala

          Windows is tweak-safe, hahahaha, youre clearly somebody who doesnt know jack of gpedit, services, msconfig, regedit or the management console.

          NooB.

          • Patrick Gillespie

            You’re right, but MS doesn’t make getting to these settings nearly as easy. That said, there probably isn’t an OS in existence that a user couldn’t bork. It’s all relative.

          • Anonymous

             Ubuntu doesn’t make getting to these settings nearly as easy. MS have them preinstalled and available.

        • Yaseen Noorani

          Spot on there with the Steve Jobs and Apple/Windows comparison.

        • Carl lal

          I see, that’s why people like me should stop using ubuntu and switch to something else. I don’t like apple so it makes no sense for me to use an apple like product. Linux Mint FTW

        • https://launchpad.net/~cody.smith Cody Smith

          A “Steve Jobs” in Linux is not good for the whole FLOSS idealism, as FLOSS is dealing with FREEDOM of choice and what you do with your desktop, sure, Steve Jobs may have done almost EVERYTHING for users with Mac OS X, but that would simply ruing the FLOSS image if that were to be done, FLOSS (in the original meaning as was intended by Stallman) CANNOT have freedom taken from the user if it were to keep the original meaning, and Ubuntu, as much as people dislike to believe it, is a part of that movement. so freedom MUST stay in the USER’S hands, as well as the developer’s hands.

          I like Mark’s intentions of trying to bring more users, but for FLOSS and Linux, the way of going about it as another Steve Jobs is not going to help.

          • Anonymous

            Open source became merely a marketing term lately it seems.

        • Chris Kildegaard

          So make it tweak safe by DEFAULT. I’d like to point out that to tweak any Unity settings you kinda HAVE to grab CCSM right now. That’s stupid both in the fact that I can’t customize the interface out of the box, and that 80% of the other settings in that program break the interface. So take those settings out of CCSM, and then nobody will need or want to install it unless they know what they are doing and exactly what they want to accomplish.

          I strongly do NOT believe that making something usable does not require making it locked-down. Wrong approach. Make it usable by default, and let advanced users have the tools to tweak away.

        • Juan Mares

          even OS X and Windows have control panels that can hose the system. Pretty soon we’ll have to jail break our ubuntu install. What fun!

        • http://www.facebook.com/Insperatus James P. Harding

          I love to tweak and customize – I like trying new stuff, making it fit just right for me.  Unity is pretty awesome – really setting Ubuntu apart from all the other distros, love it so far.  I love watching as it develops, more and more tweaks and options become available.  This is fun man.  Exciting times.

      • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

         You don’t have to be an idiot in order to scroll a window using the mouse wheel. But doing so in ccsm is dangerous.

        • Anonymous

           I just patched CCSM locally to remove the horizontal scale bars which react to the mouse wheel. They are redundant anyhow, that widget has a spinner for setting the value as well as the scrolley range bars. Fixing this involved commending out 8 lines and changing another, and I had never seen the ccsm source up to about 10 minutes ago.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            Hey alright! If this forces people to fix CCSM to be safe then yay!

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GE4EYP3QOQ246PLG2Y2DOD2NIQ Dr. Fly

            We need more first-time bug fixers like you.

      • Anonymous

        Then call it Windows to round off all the edges!

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       You don’t format your disk by scrolling the output in gnome-terminal. But you can break things by scrolling the ccsm main window. Things like that is the big problem, as I see it. Shouldn’t be too difficult to fix, so I think removing it from the repos is too drastic. But removing Unity config options from it would reduce the danger, since breaking Unity is much more difficult to fix.

      • Adrian Wechner

         just making it UN-deactivatable the unity plugin and hiding completly the plugins which do not work is enough.

        • http://twitter.com/MotionShot Heimen Stoffels

          So let’s assume plugin A isn’t broken and plugin B isn’t either. They both work fine standalone, but the combination of A and B makes it break. Which of those 2 are you gonna hide then?

    • Anonymous

      Agreed.

    • Yaseen Noorani

      Nice one!

  • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

    Ubuntu: Because Gnome isn’t failing enough on its own.

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

      ccsm is not a Ubuntu-exclusive program. Compiz is in use on most GNU/Linux distros.

      • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

        Correct. And it works great with everything except versions of Ubuntu that have implemented Unity. What will happen to Xubuntu’s functionality when CCSM is purged from the repos? The point of my comment is that many of gnome’s recent changes are already unpopular on their own right, and Ubuntu is just adding fuel to the fire by doing things like this.

        • Jim Raredon

          Actually, every function that I ever change works fine with Unity.  I don’t see where everyone is having a problem with it.  CCSM just works, and works very well.  This is ridiculous to even consider…

        • http://profiles.google.com/mpnordland Micah Nordland

          Unpopular is another relative term, unpopular to whom? I, personally happen to think that the changes being made in GNOME are quite popular. Even Linus Torvalds thinks so.

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            This is true; it’s a relative term. The fact is that both Linux Mint and Xubuntu have seen an upturn in downloads and installations since Ubuntu went with Unity. (Mint’s upturn is more recent, since they released Cinnamon, and Cinnamon’s whole purpose is to emulate Gnome 2 it would seem). That’s what I’m basing that on.

          • http://twitter.com/Sephiroth_VII NCLI

             An upturn, yes but have you ever compared traffic for Mint and Ubuntu’s sites?

            Mint’s traffic is completely, totally and utterly insignificant compared to Ubuntu’s, no matter what Distrowatch tells you.

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            The web traffic argument is really weak. Are you missing the point on purpose? The fact is that people are leaving Ubuntu because of Unity; it’s a fact. The argument could be made that no one has to return to Mint’s site multiple times because it actually works when you install it.

    • http://johannpopper.myopenid.com/ Johann Popper

      Hahaha… Very good.

  • http://daniel.friesen.name/ Daniel Friesen

    Gah, isn’t that the tool I use to enable opacify on all my Ubuntu machines?

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       Sure. It has many nice configuration options. It’s mostly the GUI that’s so horribly wrong. Conflict resolution is also difficult to manage in ccsm. You have to really know what you’re doing.

  • http://profiles.google.com/dscassel Darcy Casselman

    It’s great that they’re making Unity configurable using standard configuration dialogs, but Unity isn’t the only Compiz plugin. And they’re not going to clutter up config dialogs with all the settings people might want or need to tweak.

    For example, my girlfriend gets dizzy from seeing motion. Catching that little icon wiggle animation out of the corner of her eye is enough to make her computer experience uncomfortable.  CCSM allows her to turn off a bunch of unnecessary animations that can make her literally feel ill. 

    Just because you can’t imagine why someone might have a legitimate reason for configuring something doesn’t mean there isn’t one.  Yes, misconfiguring compiz can cause problems.  Put up big warning signs (preferably without blinking lights–see above).  But don’t go out of your way to make it impossible for people to configure their computer in a way that allows them to use it comfortably.

    • http://profiles.google.com/mainerror Octavian Damiean

      It could be made available via a PPA. People that really want it and know how to use it without breaking their config can still install and use it.

      Having it in the repositories gives users that don’t really understand the potential risk a wrong impressing of safety.

  • http://perot.me/ Etienne Perot

    “Instead of warning users about what they’re doing, prevent them from being able to do it in the first place.”
    This kind of attitude needs to stop, in my opinion.
    A simple warning in ccsm or when installing ccsm would solve all problems with none of the drawbacks.

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      You’re putting words in my mouth.

      People should absolutely learn to use their tools, but the onus is on us as a project to give people tools that work. 

      You’d be angry if you took a horseriding lesson and they gave you a horse with only two legs and then they tell you “Don’t worry, you’ll learn, I’m just trying to educate you!”

      • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

         I think that’s a poor comparison. It would be better to say that you tell a parent that you’ll teach their children to ride a very calm and friendly pony and then place them on an untamed mustang and tell them good luck and have fun.

        • Jordan Ketterer

          I believe an even better comparison is.

          Present:
          I’m going to teach your child how to ride a horse,  we have access to whips.  

          What would work better:
           I’m going to teach you to ride a horse, We have access to whips, but please realize that this could make your horse go out of control if not used properly. 

      • Jim Raredon

        Most of the functions in CCSM are NOT broken, even with Unity.  The screen edge functions are one good example.  I set my lower right corner as a “hot” corner for activating Window tiling (whatever it’s called; the Expose’ type feature).  I also like adjusting the speed of the tiling, since the default takes too long when I’m trying to switch to another terminal to fix the DNS server I just borked. Taking features like that away (or even the “cube” for those who like to show off) goes against everything that Linux is about… choice.

        Yes, there are a couple plugins that conflict with Unity, but 90% of the settings will not break anything, and they do a lot to improve my productivity. 

        I have yet to see ANY other graphical option for modifying most of these compiz settings, so yes, you would be disenfranchising power users for the sake of n00bs.

        • http://twitter.com/Kisaro247 Oliver

          +1. I do the exactly same thing regarding a “Scale” hot corner, window in/out effects, tweaking focus stealing behaviour for special apps etc, all without breaking Unity.

          I understand the point that it should not just be installable for any noob from software center and let it break his desktop without any warning. I myself however would prefer a simple “know what you are doing before continuing” warning to anything else. But whatever you do, please keep the usage of CCSM as a possibility, if neccessary in a separate PPA.

          • Jim Raredon

            Yes, “Scale” is the term I was trying to remember, thanks!

      • http://profiles.google.com/vperetokin Vadim Peretokin

        Since when did CCSM become such a bad tool though? It wasn’t all that bad in the days before Unity as I recall it.

        Where are these new issues from? Poor quality Canonical-added code, which isn’t a new occurrence?

        (I mean, for one, metacity has been crashing for me daily over – and it was stable as a rock before Unity-2D touched it).

        I think CCSM is getting blame shifted to it unfairly, after it’s stability was wrecked in Ubuntu. 

        You also have to realize that the basic need for it – exactly the reason you’d like to remove it, because so many people recommend it – is that it provides the options that are necessary that Ubuntu does not. All you want to do, in effect, is make those options even harder to achieve!

        Making a better tool, that is safe, that provides the options is a much better idea than removing the options altogether.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          “Making a better tool, that is safe, that provides the options is a much better idea than removing the options altogether.” 

          Please read what I proposed, that is exactly what I am proposing.

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            More accurately, you are proposing to nuke CCSM from the repositories when there is nothing available that provides the same number of configurations or customizations. This is the same way that they started shipping with Unity when, quite frankly, Unity is nowhere near finished. If there was any sort of comparable alternative to CCSM, people wouldn’t be up in arms about this post.

          • Michal Gregor

            You know, the problem is that any tool with a comparable degree of power will necessarily allow the user to break their desktop. Any reasonably powerful configuration tool for compiz will allow the user to enable/disable plugins, thus allowing them to disable unity… After which they will end up with little more than a plain desktop… Quite obviously this is what SHOULD happen if the tool works correctly.

      • http://hector-macias.blogspot.com Hector Macias Ayala

        And your solution is to kill the horse, of course.

  • Glenn Chugg

    For stability and simplicity CCSM should be removed, BUT a new tweaker will be required that offers the important and stable changes user want to do, Such as all the unity tweaks that CCSM usually allows, CCSM is a nightmare app and even if your a smart hacker you’ll still break Unity by trying things – such as Enabling Wobbly Windows etc. any unstable tweaker is BAD and should not be included in a Stable OS or a simple OS. But before you guys remove it, make a Quality replacement and put it in the System settings along with the Screen, Wallpaper, Mouse etc settings – as well as the command line tools require to Automate tweak setting.

  • http://kennym.github.com Kenny Meyer

    That’s why I use Arch. I don’t give a f about person A telling thing B. I just roll.

  • http://profiles.google.com/mainerror Octavian Damiean

    I’d like to add something to Chris Coulson’s comment. It is not only a loaded gun but one that will always point its muzzle towards the user.

    • Cliff Wells

      I’m pretty sure that analogy has been used with regard to any software that significantly empowers the user to alter their computing experience. 

  • Rodislav Moldovan

    should not!

  • Anonymous

    To be honest, when I think about it, I must have in my early days of ignorance broken roughly 40 ubuntu installs outright through bad choices in CCSM.

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      You’re not ignorant, the tool is broken. 

      • Anonymous

        by ignorant I mean that I would watch some obscure video on YouTube made 4 ish years ago, try and recreate it, and then break my system completely. I guess I mean ignorant of the risk.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          There shouldn’t be a risk with playing around with your desktop, that’s the whole point! 

          You should be able to explore what works for you without fear that your computer will break!

          • Anonymous

            This would be absolutely true – if ccsm would be installed by default. But just a buggy program might be a risk – that’s life. Thats why there are user comments in USC. Put a warning in USC! That would might be the best way!

          • Anonymous

            Then there should be a “restore” feature. Not exactly like the restore points like Windows has, but still a cumulative desktop restore.

          • Anonymous

            Something like “RESTORE TO DEFAULT SETTINGS!!”

            Shouldn’t be too difficult to achieve right?

          • Chris Chester

            I like what is being done with Ubuntu and the way System Settings is growing with the new features of User Interface. For me,  you guys are going in the right direction and if I decide I want or need CCSM again I know how to get it. People complain but Ubuntu is trying to grow their audience and taking these kind of steps will help. It doesn’t do Ubuntu users any good if a novice user tries to change something and then messes up their computer and can’t easily put it back the way it was. CCSM is too much for new Ubuntu users I think. Remember they started on Windows and Apple most likely and just want something that just works and is easy to configure, setup and change without a lot of learning in between. They will do that when they get used to it.

      • Cliff Wells

        Broken tool > no tool.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          Not if that tool causes user harm. Working > Not Working.

          • Jim Raredon

            It DOESN’T cause the user harm, and it’s NOT broken.  I use it on all 600+ of my installs with 12 settings being changed, and not ONE error.

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            That’s great for you, but unfortunately it’s not for all the people reporting bug reports about ccsm.

          • Cliff Wells

            That seems a bit disingenuous.  Unity has been shipping as the default desktop despite the bugs (including introducing the user to a frozen desktop on their fresh install).   

            I would think the goal would be to fix the bugs, not just throw away the software.

    • Cliff Wells

      How do you break the install?  Just start without Compiz and fix it.

  • http://twitter.com/phiphi_g Philipp Gassmann

    What’s wrong? Is it april 1st? That’s censorship and restricting freedom. It’s exactly what we complain about on other platforms, where you have to jailbreak or fear, that we won’t be able to boot another OS.

    • Ian Santopietro

      I don’t necessarily support this change, but calling it censorship or a restriction of freedom is just wrong. You’d still be able to install it and mess with things. You’d just have to add a PPA first.

      • http://anubeon.tumblr.com Lee Hyde

        It does add an additional barrier to discoverability though, and frankly I’ve got too many PPA’s already. :-p

        It’s no big deal for me, and I’m sure many other CCSM users, but total removal from the universe repository is a bit overkill in my view none the less.

    • Cliff Wells

      That’s probably an overreaction.  CCSM did not provide any ability to install other OS’s.

  • https://profiles.google.com/phonixor phonixor

    haha that proves it that i am not a power user :)

    question how screwed up can you make it?
    and how easy is it to undo this? (does just a warning in the market suffice)

    i do agree that nothing in the default software center should be able to break your system… however, that is maybe a bit idealistic and unrealistic…(would probably remove every package (which is probably mostly a good thing(except for the small insignificant detail, that nothing would work)))

    a simple advanched user filter switch…
    or removing the compiz from being gui searchable… (so you would require, to manually select the package, like in synaptic)
    might be more appropriate…

  • http://photo.katzmatt.com Matt Katzenberger

    The only acceptable “solution” is to make Ubuntu so customizable by default that no one *needs* to use CCSM. People won’t look for it if they don’t need it.

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      You can use myunity or ubuntu-tweak if you want to configure unity.

      • http://photo.katzmatt.com Matt Katzenberger

        I do use Ubuntu Tweak and I love it, but that’s a third party app (that as far as I know isn’t in the main repos, but you have to go through a PPA (that may have changed though)). I know MyUnity is in the repo and I’m sure it’s adequate for configuring unity, but….

        CCSM offers A TON more options than either, and they’re more granular (setting transparency and blur for individual windows for example). Furthermore those awesome tools your mentioned are still extras, not a default part of Ubuntu (admittedly this is a separate issue, but still).

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          So we should file bugs in those programs and encourage people to get involved instead of heading down the path of a tool that we know has no future. 

          (CCSM isn’t in the default ubuntu install either)

          • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

            Why can’t we file bugs in CCSM and try to get it working with Unity? What’s with the horse blinders, dude?

          • Bruno Pereira

            Its not horse blinders, CCSM is great but 90% of the time will break someones desktop just by breading on it. Wrong click, gone, wrong value that should not be there, gone

          • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

            If you look at the bug reports for ccsm you’ll see no one is fixing them, it’s basically abandoned.

      • http://profiles.google.com/homerj141 Ryan Sharp

        The choices in those programs are far too limited to satisfy those of us who love to tweak.
        Some people who use Ubuntu yet don’t understand how it works may remember CCSM as being a tweaking tool that worked for their 10.10 installs and use it for Unity. So they would expect to use all of its functions that MyUnity or Ubuntu-Tweak can’t do.

        Don’t get me wrong, I am FOR removing it, but I am also hopeful that they decide to improve the current CCSM to work with Unity. I believe that is the best option, but whether or not it is realistic, I have no idea.

      • Anonymous

        How do these two apps help with the rest of Compiz plugins?

  • Knez Nenc

    rename the package- something like: compizconfig-settings-manager-deprecated

  • http://twitter.com/icalper Ivan Calderon Perez

    Should Absolutely Ugly, Unproductive, Slow and Pointless desktop shells like Unity Be Removed from the Ubuntu Repos?

    YES YES YES YES YES!!!!

    First you royally screw compiz by polluting it with Unity code, then you ditch their best tweaking tool because it may break what you actually broke… Im happy to be using [other distro] instead of ubuntu right now.

    • Jochen Blacha

      Well, killing Unity out of the repos would at least fix the compatibility issue with cssm – LOL

      However, I can’t care less about the little brainfarts going on at Canonical. Mark’s idiotic design changes (window buttons top/left) and retarded Unity UI already drove me away from Ubuntu. I’ll happily stay with Linux Mint where the guys now actually develop a desktop (Cinnamon) that gives me control over my desktop and doesn’t stand in the way when doing work.

      • mahammed siddieg

        @jochen you don;t even have the luxury of compiz in your retarted gnome shell trials,this mint guy tried mate and failed, his overhyped MGSE flop,and one month after that started cinomon, what a failed promise only antiubuntu idiots could believe this crap,you and your mint crap are absolute joke/brainfarts.

        • http://anubeon.tumblr.com Lee Hyde

          Geesh! A bit rude surely. :-|

        • Cliff Wells

          Maybe Canonical should focus on making spell-checkers more user friendly.  Helping their users sound slightly less illiterate would be something I think everyone could get behind.

      • Anonymous

        So.. you don’t even use Ubuntu. But you insult the probably only reason that desktop linux still exists. Twice. Rudly. For things which are completely normal on other OS’es (window buttons left), and which make even sense in hindsight. The Linux distro you are using wouldn’t even exist without Ubuntu, you should be aware of that. And I REALLY want to see which great things YOU accomplished in life to talk like that about somebody who actually achieved something. And who wastes a lot of money, ideas and enthusiasm on scum like you.

    • http://anubeon.tumblr.com Lee Hyde

      I’m afraid I have to agree with @twitter-91038463:disqus , with no particular malice directed at Canonical. I’ve been using and tweaking compiz for >2 years under Ubuntu and the only ‘breakages’ I’ve had relate to incompatibilities with Unity. As far as I can see Unity is the weak link here, and it would be a little vexing were Canonical to decide to remove a valued configuration tool like CCSM because they’ve failed to implement Unity in a manor that is compatible with CCSM and compiz’s myriad other useful plug-ins.

      I’m sure that were it removed from the default repos some kind soul would provide a well maintained launchpad PPA for it, but surely a happy compromise that wouldn’t require yet another PPA would be to patch CCSM to display a clear (modal?) warning message whenever it’s started.

    • Anonymous

      Should Absolutely pointless, unproductive, silly, impetuous, etc COMMENT be removed from this discussion?

      Hell to the YES!!
      If you don’t like Unity , just don’t use it!

      • http://anubeon.tumblr.com Lee Hyde

        Should superfluous, smarmy responses be removed?

        Nope, that would be censorship. :-p

        • http://twitter.com/icalper Ivan Calderon Perez

          Nice one.

      • Cliff Wells

        Better if you simply avoided commenting in the first place.

    • Anonymous

      I must admit you’re not totally wrong  ;)

  • http://www.erickjohncuevas.com erickjohncuevas

    improve don’t remove!

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       Sure, it’s easy to say that others should improve it. But the simple truth is that these problems have persisted for years. Why would it suddenly improve now?

      • Anonymous

        It will improve only if it’s still actively maintained and if users file bugs whenever they find issues. Of course, not many users are used/comfortable/willing to do that.

  • Anonymous

    This is a very good idea!

    ccsm has caused me so much grief. 3 reinstalls and one upgrade to 12.04 to avoid reinstalling for a 4th time (but I was going to do that anyway :P )

    Plus Ubuntu Tweak won’t play nicely with it.

  • http://twitter.com/lallenlowe Allen Lowe

    I have spent many hours of my life fixing Ubuntu installs that were
    nuked by CCSM. So, no, I don’t think Ubuntu should include a
    self-destruct button in it’s repos…

    • Anonymous

      The repos contain also the programs “sudo” and “rm”, including the parameter “-rf /”. Should they be removed as well? Just because people are to stupid to use tools, should this stop those who know how to use them?

      This is an incredibly ignorant and even dangerous attitude, one that should have been extinguished long ago. I won’t forget how to write, just because I could – accidently – write an offending letter to myself. I also won’t rip my neighbours brain out of his skull, just because the same might happen to him.

      Seriously, I can’t understand how many people (in the poll) support such a nonsense.

      • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

        People aren’t too stupid to use the tool, the tool just doesn’t work. 

        • Cliff Wells

          I’ve never had an issue with CCSM *until* Unity became the default.  Paint me suspicious.

          • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

             Well, obviously, Unity isn’t special — except that it’s the entire desktop. If you accidentally deactivate wobbly windows, then that’s not a disaster. If you permanently deactivate your desktop, then that is a potential dealbreaker for a new user.

          • http://twitter.com/jspaleta Jef Spaleta

            And i think this is an important point to stress.

            I believe Unity as implemented now is way outside the scope of what a compiz plugin was meant to be.

            Unity really isn’t a plugin exactly because it is the whole desktop. Coding it as a compiz plugin was expedient as a second attempt at creating a Unity  deliverable after Canonical failed to make it work as a mutter derivative. But its way out of scope for what compiz “plugins” were really mean to be.. little bits of functionality that you could mix and match…turn on or off. Unity is not that.

            No Unity is way more complex and much more fundamental than being cast as a “plugin” for anything.

            So the reality is, it just needs to be excluded from being controlled as a a traditional compiz plugin. Full stop.  People who want to use compiz as a window manager for more traditional desktop environments to get the spinning cube and the wobbly windows and what not are going to still want CCSM (sans any Unity control)

            But I think some of the themes being expressed go deeper. I think the call for removal of CCSM marks a distinct turn in the compiz project. It’s no longer a distinct project, its now should be thought strictly as a technology dep for Unity instead of some neutral window manager project to be used with other environments.

            The needs of Unity are going to drive to drive the direction of compiz development moving forward. I fully expect to see compiz deliverables further streamlined including the removal of plugins which don’t enhance the designed Unity experience.

            -jef

        • Anonymous

          Well, it works up to a point. But there is a difference between not installing a program by default, or taking a program out of the repos. There are so-and-so many buggy programs in the repos. What you attempt here is a sort of censorship. Taking every option away from the user so he can’t hurt himself is what they do to prisoners and to OSX users. But please not in Ubuntu.

      • http://twitter.com/orgulho_geek Orgulho Geek

        People aren’t stupid! People are curious, people want to try something different.
        Users that want to tweak their Compiz settings with CCSM can find it. Wherever it is, so, Canonical should protect the average-joe of break their systems, think that the problem is LINUX and go out telling everyone around the world their bad experience with Ubuntu+CCSM.

        That’s a challenge: what about you guys, that are so “freaking good” and call user “stupid people” take CCSM and improve it, then show it better than it is, and, who know, the “stupid people” will stop to break their systems and thank you?

        If you are not ok with Canonical and Ubuntu decisions, you are free to move to another distro, where “stupid people” will not dare to use.

        • Anonymous

          I don’t want to move to a new distro. I use Ubuntu since about 2006. I wrote my PHD-thesis on a computer running Ubuntu. And I even like the new direction of the distro.

          And thats why I am deeply emotionally involved, if something happens that I believe is fundamentally wrong.

          But to your other point.. I partly agree with the arguments of Jorge Castro. However, there are many buggy programs in the repos. No program will ever be perfect. It is the responsibility of the user to google, read the manuals etc before running them. And in the FOSS world, one might even call it censorship, if access to a program is intentionally restricted.

          And please don’t forget: CCSM is NOT installed by default. Somebody who installs it from the repos did some research before. And if he spoils his system beyond repair this only means that he didn’t do ENOUGH research. And that’s what I call stupid.

  • Anonymous

    Instead of removing it, they need to develop a way to do everything it does but in a much better way so that people have no need to install it from the repos. 

    Personally its one of the first tools I install to reduce the the icon size in Unity and to turn off that silly playschool colorization around each icon. Right now there is no way to do that without the tool. 

  • http://twitter.com/Cezzarezero Cesar Tellez

    I’m not a power user, and the tweaks I use in the CCSM are few and very specific; also, I’m a digital artist and up to this point the integration of both GNOME 3 and Unity desktop with graphic-oriented apps (GIMP, Krita and Mypaint) is far from being optimal, which is because I’m still relying in GNOME 2 instead, and the CCSM is the easiest way to use and configure desktop effects in GNOME 2.

  • http://twitter.com/HeartAtttack Elie [M]

    me too

  • http://twitter.com/HeartAtttack Elie [M]

    that’s why i did stick with gnome shell, which, btw, is very beautiful

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       Why, because it doesn’t have a configuration tool like ccsm? That’s a little strange. In that case, you could just as well use Unity and not configure that either.

  • Anonymous

    Yes it should…. But with some restrictions : If it’s not in the repos, another tool, providing EVERY STABLE FUNCTIONNALITIES of CCSM must appear in replacement, because everyone use diffent plugins. This is a so big work that I don’t thing Canonical nor Community will (or even can) do it. So don’t remove it.

    Maybe just don’t display known buggy plugins by default, except if explicitly asked (a choice in the generals options of CCSM with an explicit name (show untested (or incompatibles) features, something like this).

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_BNCM5LFNJQWNL37L5356JVZIUE Anonymous

    Until Compiz can properly detect my refresh rate and give videos proper vsync, I have to use CCSM.
    But luckily, I use Debian Sid and no compositing.

  • http://twitter.com/andmatand Andrew Anderson

    The fact that non-power users even have to install a complicated tool like ccsm in order to configure basic things is pretty embarrassing. That is the real problem, not ccsm, and this should be a wake-up call that the configuration for Unity/Accessibility needs to be available somewhere where *normal* users would know to get to it, e.g. System Preferences. Then most people would have absolutely no need to install ccsm.

    But as for removing ccsm??  sudo rm -rf / can break your system; why don’t we remove the packages for sudo and rm?

  • Georgi Karavasilev

    Hmm, this is interesting.
    CCSM doesn’t control unity only, but other compiz related stuff, however it’s a poweruser tool and powerusers should be able to install it even if it’s not in the repos (e.g. go to packages.ubuntu.com search for the package in oneiric repos, get the .deb etc…). I don’t see how a rookie will be use CCSM, or will feel the need when MyUnity is in the repos and especially if Unity settings are integrated in “System Settings”.
    In conslusion: CCSM is something that mostly powerusers use (don’t image my grandma or mom using it – lol) and it will still be installable through manual downloading the .deb file from the Oneiric repo (or someone could make a PPA), so I am in favour of removing … however I wouldn’t mind if it stays :)

  • http://twitter.com/andmatand Andrew Anderson

    ccsm isn’t installed by default. The only reason newbies even know to install it is because they read about it on the internet somewhere. They can just as easily read about terminal commands without understanding what they’re really doing and screw up their system.

    • http://twitter.com/andmatand Andrew Anderson

      [deleted]

  • Anonymous

    Canonical should focus on Improving/fixing existing stuff  ***in the first place*** rather than wondering which package should be purged or not, but I agree it’s not easy with its 6 months release cycle.

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Canonical had the money to employ even five percent of the active Ubuntu community? If you place all the responsibility on Canonical, then Ubuntu will fail.

      • Anonymous

        I don’t place all the reponsability on canonical, but unity is canonical choice if I’m right. And I don’t have anything against unity, I just think it’s not stable enough yet.

      • Anonymous

        “If you place all the responsibility on Canonical, then Ubuntu will fail.”

        What a prediction! ;-)

        (I happen to think all the responsibility IS on Canonical…)

  • http://www.facebook.com/zeroangel David Bobb

    They should flesh out the user’s ability to tweak unity settings through perhaps a third tab in appearance options called ‘advanced’, which lets users set refresh rates, autohide delay, dash color, etc — and THEN remove CCSM from universe (anyone who wants CCSM back can simply add a PPA with CCSM) — or alternatively pop up a warning through CCSM saying ‘warning: this tool can break your desktop. Use with caution’.

    Another option would be to simply categorize CCSM into the ‘basic’ and ‘advanced’ tabs. Basic refers to settings which are unlikely to break the machine, advanced would have settings that have potential to break the machine if done incorrectly.

  • Anonymous

    Put all the halfway software into an external repo for would-be devs and hackers to fool around with.

  • Anonymous

    I’ve used CCSM extensively in customizing Compiz over the last few years, and, honestly, I’ve run into fewer problems with it itself than the drivers I was using with it. CCSM is one of several apps I’d install off the bat in Ubuntu…if I were still using Ubuntu.

    Ubuntu used to be such that I could customize all the settings and things I wanted using a combination of Ubuntu-Tweak, CCSM, and the preferences/admin menus. Since the dawn of Unity and Gnome 3, I’ve used Linux less and yearned deeply for the sort of user-friendliness combined with user-customizability found in earlier releases such as 9.10 and 10.04 (maybe even 10.10, but I’ve heard that was when they introduced Unity. My memory is bad.)

    Perhaps it’s just me that positively adored all the options and configuration possibilities in earlier releases…but even if so, this is a bad idea, in my opinion. Don’t remove it.

  • Anonymous

    CCSM never was so dangerous before Unity. I really like Unity, but Gnome + Compiz + Ubuntu tweaks here and there… so many layers around, sounds to problems to me. If Unity will stay like a compiz plugin, it need to work nice with CCSM. Or remove Unity complete from Compiz.

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       The problem is not Compiz and it is not Unity. The problem is the way ccsm reacts to user input and the way it handles conflicts. Scrolling a window should never cause a major disaster. If ccsm just had a save/cancel button, it would help a lot. Currently, if you scroll a window and the mouse pointer is one pixel above or one pixel below, it’s fine. If it’s in between, then you might change settings without even knowing it. No program should work like that. But a program such as ccsm _definitely_ should not work like that.

  • http://twitter.com/quiel90 Strato

    Hey! with CCSM is how i mostly learned how to tweak/fix/destroy ubuntu… is one of the best ways to learn how to use a computer by destroying it… i broke so many times ubuntu by using it, that i finally learned how to use it properly.

  • http://ghettocottage.com Endle Winters

    Having the Review system in the Software Center is a good way to flag potential harmful applications. Maybe adding a little feature for people to add a “Warning!” to reviews would solve this issue. Enough “Warnings!” and a red flag is placed conspicuously on that application.

  • Anonymous

    I’ve been using KDE 4 these days and it changed the way I see Gnome and Unity (for those who say Unity is not Gnome). One thing I love about KDE is the System Panel, everything you can change in KDE is there.

    In Ubuntu there is Ubuntu Tweak, Gnome Tweak Tool, System Settings, MyUnity, Dconf Editor, CCSM and I don’t know if I’m missing something.

    CCSM is the most complete when it comes to Compiz and Unity for obvious reasons. If you want to change the fonts or Metacity theme, there is Gnome Tweak Tool.  Want to change something hidden? Dconf. See where I’m heading?

    System Settings should have every useful Compiz plugin like Desktop Zoom, Magnifier, Negative and the Unity settings built in. Everything should be in one place like KDE does.

    Small things like this (and Dolphin) made me switch to KDE. It is better thought out than any other DE on Linux and it performs better than Unity, GS or good old Gnome 2.

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       You are aware that ccsm is used in KDE as well, yes?

      • Anonymous

        Yes I am. But, KDE has ots own Wimdow Manager called Kwin wich nowadays it is more stable and smoother than Compiz.

        Compiz is not compatible with KDE out of the box. You need to install CCSM and enable KDE compatibility and configure KDE to use Compiz.

        Using Compiz on KDE is hard. Also, who is crazy enough to do it? Kwin these days is way better than Compiz. Give KDE 4.7 or 4.8 and you’ll see what I’m talking about. :)

  • José Pedro Arvela

    How about simply disabling certain elements from CCSM when the session requires the Unity plugin? For example, gray out checkmarks for plugins that can’t be enabled/disabled, gray out settings that contradict with Unity settings, etc. If the session being run isn’t Unity (i.e. Unity 2D or Gnome (Shell)), then allow everything to be changed and the users to do as they wish.

    All this involves is patching CCSM so it detects the session and acts accordingly. For later versions, if they want to improve polish, they can do so by developing from then on by omitting options that do not apply, focus less on plugin and more on functionalities, etc.

    This way novice users don’t ruin their desktop and advanced users can knowingly open another section and configure whatever they want there (even enable there the Unity plugin with whichever contradictory options they want).

  • Magne Djupvik

    I voted for ‘yes’. Why? Because since Ubuntu is aimed at novice users, it should go all the way and let us power users go to other distros, like I’ve already done.

    Ubuntu for my mother; other distros for myself.

  • Will Moorhead

    Maybe HELP with CCSM and make it better.

    You have the power of FOSS right on your fingertips. USE IT

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       There is a right way and a wrong way to do anything, and the wrong way is to tell everyone else to do it the right way.

      • Anonymous

        Words of wisdom..

      • Will Moorhead

        Then how will the people doing it the wrong way know which way is the right way from the wrong way?

        /confusing-conversation

  • http://twitter.com/7akula7 7akula7

    Repos are the reason why linux will never succeed. You should create an universal ‘app store’ as in mac os. 

    • Anonymous

      Quite the contrary. Repos make the app-store an “app-mall”. Each repo IS an app-store. You wouldn’t want a mall with a single store, would you?

      (Why Ubuntu doesn’t exploit this fact and makes the Software Center a true and easily manageable app-mall, offering Adobe and other ISVs a big showroom in it, for instance, is beyond me, but me not
      understanding Mark Shuttleworth and his “design” team is not news.)

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      We have that, submit your app!

  • Anonymous

    i upgraded to 12.04 from 11.10, then cleaned something up with “ubuntu tweak” and ended up with an invisible unity desktop, with just the wallpaper and the ability to rightclick on it.
    it is wrong to assume that “ubuntu tweak” cant break the system, though i like the program…

  • Benjamin Piller

    Ubuntu should create two repos: 1. a repo without potentially damaging apps.(It should be a “base” repo for any nomral user) 2. The “extended” repo with all apps for the geeky/nerdy user.  Problem solved!!

  • Anonymous

    by the way, the function to zoom in and out with the mousewheel and super is a very essential one! if that would get lost, one of the biggest smart moves of ubuntu above windows would disappear. my opinion.

  • Anonymous

    Unity has still loads of issues , no need to put the blame on ccsm

    • https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/R4szkb7 Jo-Erlend Schinstad

       So, if Unity has issues, then it’s not possible to improve the configuration of Compiz? Very strange logic. The suggestion here, is to make Unity more configurable, but using a tool that will not depend on pixel-perfect placement of the mouse pointer in order for you to not break your system.

      • Anonymous

         ok, so you don’t like scrollable windows with slider widgets in them, lets patch it to make them a more mousewheel safe option.

      • Anonymous

        I just think the priority is improving unity and that means still a lot of work. Of course, ccsm can be improved too (rather than be removed.)

  • Anonymous

    Yes! Ether that or redesign it.

  • http://twitter.com/Azthma Azthma

    Ubuntu users are, novice users, beginners, power users, developers, engineers….
    So Novice and beginners are not to use tools like Compiz with out exhaustive documentation. Yet, developers and power users would still want COmpiz to adjust settings. However buggy, Compiz revealed itself to be very useful. As long as it does not come installed by default it’s fine.
    Instead of removing completely from repos, they only should remove the Unity Plugin as Unity settings are addressed now natively.

  • Vlad Spatariu

    Potentially damaging in the same context with ccsm. JOEY, MY FRIEND, you forgot where we came from!

  • Anonymous

    Ubuntu has always been a novice-orientated distribution, so I think it’s a good decision. Besides, if you are a power user then you would shurely know how to install CCSM adding a PPA..

  • Anonymous

    Seems like a pathetic response to the problem, and bad engineering as well.

    How about fixing the issue instead of making it more difficult to access a program?  If people routinely break their config using CCSM, why not keep a backup of the last known working config or even the default config and make it really easy to restore?

    Why not make it more difficult to break the config in the first place, by making the desktop more robust, displaying warnings and not permitting certain specific dangerous operations.

    What’s even gained by putting it in a PPA? I’m sure the same people who install it from the repos and subsequently wreck their system will be just as happy to do a sudo add-apt-repository and end up in the same situation.

  • Jon Arnett

    Let me say this: I understand where the idea comes from. Absolutely. I myself have managed to break my desktop on multiple occasions, and I can’t deny that.

    However, taking away CCSM is a bit far. The customization and features it offers make Linux beautiful and unique. Where else can you have 4 desktops pinned to a cylinder or sphere, spinning around in the bottom of the ocean full of fish (general settings, desktop cube, cube deformation, skydome, aquarium)?

    So here’s my two cents: So it’s broken. Sure. If Ubuntu can offer me a better interface to set all my Compiz settings, I’ll install it the day it comes out and never touch CCSM again, and that’s a promise.

  • seamus williams

    Add Ubuntu tweak iso it has most of the functions that people need such as hotcorners for scale 

  • Cliff Wells

    “It may house the ‘Unity’ desktop plugin (which if unchecked will ‘break’ your desktop) but it also plays home to a variety of other options that Ubuntu no longer supports or uses – many of which conflict or break Unity when enabled.”
    So… how exactly will non-Unity users fare in the absence of this tool?  No way to disable the Unity plugin, so clearly they can’t use Compiz at all.

    I’ve been wondering for the last few days if there’s any reason to stick with Ubuntu if not using Unity.  This article is starting to confirm my gut feeling that Debian is probably a better place for the non-Unity using user.

  • kilian klaiber

    Let users decide which apps they want to use! If you believe it could be damaging then add a warning prior to its installation. Exception: The app is a virus or some kind of malware.

  • http://profiles.google.com/pablolbapablo Pablo Olbap

    if it’s broken now or it breaks unity then ok, remove it but it would be nice to see again wobbly windows as it doesn’t work in my 11.10 (but saw it worked on another pc -> youtube)

  • Drake Reeves

    What’s with taking options away? Are we really trying to nanny-state the linux desktop as well? If they don’t want it, why don’t they simply build those options and features in and make it simpler.

  • Anonymous

    My friend managed to cause damage to his installation by typing `sudo rm -rf / `. I propose rm to be completely removed from Ubuntu repositories.

    • http://jeremy.bicha.net/ Jeremy Bicha

      Actually that command doesn’t do anything. The dangerous one in my opinion is rm -rf *

  • Luis Forman

    I like the Idea, compiz is really anoying as a tool to configure your desktop. I do not know about the complete removal, but having a different standar of tools to make unity configurations seems a very interesting Idea, of course we could allways install it from a ppa. as we do normaly.

  • http://www.twm-kd.com/ BigWhale

    Comparing with terminal and other potentially dangerous tools is wrong.

    CCSM is simply broken! It crashes all the time and it will kill unity on many occasions.

    CSSM -> Unitlity -> Resize Info -> toggle -> toggle again, scroll down to Window Managment -> Resize Window -> toggle -> toggle -> burst into tears

    CTRL-F1, login, setsid unity & exit CTRL-F7, keep your fingers crossed.

    Get it from your nearest PPA if you want it so badly. I know I will, but this doesn’t mean that such a broken piece of software should stay in LTS.

  • http://johannpopper.myopenid.com/ Johann Popper

    To all those very wise people who have complained every step of the way about the tyranny they saw coming a mile away, you are now vindicated. The time will come when they’ll purge the repositories, then lock users out of PPAs too. Beware. Beware. Beware.

    • http://jeremy.bicha.net/ Jeremy Bicha

       Yeah, before you know it, Ubuntu’s repositories will only contain two apps: Unity and the installer to get Unity.

      • http://twitter.com/jspaleta Jef Spaleta

        I’m not sure that would be a bad thing from a strategic business perspective for Canonical.  Frees up staffing manpower to focus on the core platform and rebuild it as an “app” marketplace to compete with iOS and Android moving forward without the inertia of all that un-qa’d repository space weighing down.

    • Anonymous

      In a Tyranny you aren’t usually free to leave, or to criticise for that matter.

  • Anonymous

    the number one top of the list of ways to break your desktop with ccsm is to try to change from wall to cube. Both provide the feature largedesktop, unity requires largedesktop. wall and cube conflict with each other so in the process of switching unity gets disabled. Unity does not *really* require largedesktop. The workspace switcher does nothing if you don’t have it. The plugin loads just fine without a largedesktop providing plugin. If unity didn’t require the feature largedesktop which it doesn’t need to then it wouldn’t get unticked by users anywhere near as often. Alternatively drop the cube and rotatecube plugins. They can go, wall works fine, cube doesn’t really work with unity. What are the other problems with ccsm? I am not averse at all to having simpler tools for configuration, but this seems like throwing out a lot of stuff, just because unity has a  misconfigured feature requirement.

  • http://twitter.com/icalper Ivan Calderon Perez

    Yaaay, my comment got removed. Way to show you care about freedom of speech OMG! Censorship!

    • http://twitter.com/evanvalen evan valentine

      not to mention you had the best comment

    • Conscious User

      Get down the soapbox. The thread was deleted because of tone, not because of content.

  • Anonymous

    I must say that Jorge Castro’s arguments ARE convincing.

    But this is not only about ccsm. It’s also generally about a distributor censoring a program, because some people don’t use it responsibly. This makes it a precedent. And that makes it so controversial.Well, you can still compile it, add a ppa, download a deb, etc.

    • http://jeremy.bicha.net/ Jeremy Bicha

      Doing nothing to stop people from getting their computers broken when you have the power to prevent it is negligence, not censorship. The question is how broken is CCSM and how likely is it to be fixed. It definitely has issues but few developers have even touched the code recently.

      An example of censorship would be if Ubuntu removed gnome-shell from the repositories because it’s not Unity and deleted every forum post and email to the mailing lists that mentioned the app.

  • Anonymous

    I agree. CCSM is a mess.

  • Ralph Alex Charlemagne

    For about 60% time that i reinstall my Ubuntu, it’s compiz config problem

    • http://openid.anonymity.com/m1iutm Trolley the Troller

      In your cause, It’s a iD10t problem.

  • http://epiphanyproject.wordpress.com/ Timothy Matias

    I agree with @Jo-Erlend Schinstad’s compromise. CCSM should be removed from the Ubuntu official repos, but (for the power users that favor this tool) be made available via third-party repos (such as getdeb / ultamatix) and PPAs. That way the users will know using CCSM may break their system if they’re not careful, much like installing bleeding-edge / incompatible packages would.

  • Raman B V

    I use CCSM to adjust the brightness of my monitor. Inspite of reducing
    the brightness to a minimum, my monitor hurts my eyes until I tweak the
    brightness with CCSM. Is there any other app which does the same? Why
    don’t they add more features rather than take away existing features.

  • Jim Raredon

    I use it to configure “hot corners” for the expose’ function.  Take that away, and Ubuntu will be less configurable than a Mac even!!!

  • Anonymous

    tl;dr

  • Anonymous

    Do you think unity break nothing? There are many apps which don’t behave correctly with unity (ie because of unity.) Just have a look at unity bugs list.
    As for ccsm, it’s mainly the interface that should be improved.

  • Yi Sun-sin

    « Ditching CCSM from the Software Centre wouldn’t mean the end of the app as it could be installed from a PPA. »
    Yeah, right. And also maybe because Ubuntu is not the only distro over here, you know.

  • Anonymous

    Finally a constructive reason why said application is broken.

  • Sathish Kumar

    corporate users and other consumers who use ubuntu for production environment need stability. Hence ccsm SHOULD GO out from ubuntu. It is only for tech geeks and no need for average users.  it is true that ccsm does not make any adverse effect of  improving the productivity.   I think canonical planning to capture corporate base.    It would be a good move.

  • Seventh Reign

    Funny thing is Gnome-Tweak was exponentially more damaging to a system than CCSM, and no one ever tried to get rid of it ..

  • http://panduaji.net Pandu Aji Wirawan

    CCSM is a one appeal of Ubuntu, improve it without remove

  • Kushal Sharma

    I use CCSM to add some Compiz effects that I like on my dekstop — such as magic lamp, wobbly windows, etc. Those who know how to use these effects and the fact that CCSM is the way to add them, deserve the benefit of the doubt that they know not to disable Unity in the settings. Even if they were curious, it’s not a problem that a simple warning when unchecking that box couldn’t fix — just the way CCSM warns you when you add Desktop Cube that Desktop Wall needs to be disabled in order to enable the Cube feature.

    Those who are absolute novices won’t care to install CCSM anyway. If you must protect Unity from its reach though, just remove it from those settings. Banning a working tool from the repos is another dangerous step towards making Linux inflexible. (I know you could add PPAs, etc. etc., but removing a software from the Ubuntu repos makes a statement that Ubuntu is headed towards becoming the same isolationist-protectionist ecosystem of proprietary software that caused Mark Shuttleworth to initiate Ubuntu’s development in the first place.)

    It would be a shame if Ubuntu became more like the stuff it is trying to replace; it has become too much like that stuff for my comfort as it is…

  • http://twitter.com/woddy68 coppa carlo

    delete CCSM !!! 

  • Anonymous

    That would be TERRIBLE

  • http://twitter.com/historyb Doug Wilson

    I voted no. I think we should decide if it’s good for us, to many decide as if we can’t make the decision ourselves.

  • http://twitter.com/majagray75 Matt Gray

    In a Ubuntu release that ranks as one of the worst EVER in terms of customisability, you want to take one of the only tools we have for customisation? Ubuntu Tweak is great – and frankly should be more easily accessed in the USC – but let’s not make things worse than they already are.

    And absolutely, they should beef up – or really just restore – some of the customisation tools that used to be in the Settings. How about making it simple and easy for somebody to change their color scheme, for one? If new users have to download gconf, go into a five-branch menu in gconf and add some numbered color codes into a line (that they probably found using another program they downloaded, Agave), just to change their application color to blue, well, we’re seriously going backwards.

  • http://softwareandunicycles.wordpress.com/ the_madman

    I think this decision fits well into Unity’s philosophy of delivering a single, solid workflow and that, in that context, it serves Canonical’s best interests (and potentially their consumers’) to remove CCSM from the repository in favour of more stable, more easy-to-use tools.

    That’s not to say that everyone *likes* the work-flow they’re working to deliver, this philosophy or the suggestion to remove CCSM, but ultimately it makes the most sense to Canonical, to its target audience and to me.

  • http://openid.anonymity.com/6o52m0 Joe Mama

    Jorge, Joey it is not CCSM that’s broken, it’s Unity.  CCSM works fine until Unity is installed.  You guys can do what the fu*k you want, but don’t say Compiz is broken.  Say it how it is, the Ubuntu Developers don’t want to spend time fixing bugs in Ubuntu that doesn’t affect there out of box experience.

  • Anonymous

    Why don’t we just work on getting Unity more stable with CCSM? After all, it’s not CCSM’s falt, it’s Unity’s. CCSM is the only thing left with Ubuntu that I can feel at home with, now that Unity took over.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_U3NUDD3F7VCELVRNQPW2NHR63M Paul

    How about removing Unity instead?

    • Anonymous

      Successful troll is successful.

  • Daniel Brainard

    Commonsense solution: Put a warning in USC for new users that some of the settings may break unity. This will stop idiots who don’t know what they’re doing from installing it and messing with stuff and still allow those who want it to use it. 

    • Satchit Bhogle

      I honestly don’t think users will listen to warnings. If you say, “This WILL break your system” (emphasis added by me), then you’re making an incorrect statement. If you say “This may break your system”, users won’t listen to it.

  • Anonymous

    Ubuntu is the problem, not CCSM. You said it: “CCSM also plays home to a variety of other options that UBUNTU no longer supports or uses.”

    I have gone very far in order to stick to Ubuntu since 2006. I have even bought new laptops or printers when they didn’t work correctly under Ubuntu. But being unable to install or configure Compiz… that would be the last straw for me. That would be “Good-bye, Ubuntu”.

  • Alex Moldovan

    That’s it. I’m switching to Wrigley’s DoubleMint

  • Anonymous

    NOoooooooooooooooooooooo!   I like the Compiz settings manager.  Fingers and toes OFF.

  • Aidan Sheridan

    there should be a section specifically for potentially ‘dangerous’ software, and that being said, the software centre needs to be thoroughly looked over and have people look over everything before adding anything to the official ppa’s

  • Anonymous

    CCSM is a horribly designed app and has been so since the beginning, with no improvement over the years. But there’s a gap between “horribly designed” and “broken” and I’m not sure CCSM is crossing the line. Not before Unity, at least (meaning Unity itself may have some responsibility too).

    This discussion would be much easier if Ubuntu was developing a sensible replacement. No, a couple of configuration options here and there do not replace a full settings manager such as CCSM. You remove CCSM and you remove all the fun from Compiz.

    Isn’t this a bit patronizing or treating users as children? Isn’t this a bit too Jobsian?

  • http://twitter.com/di0nysys Andrew Smith

    Hell No!

    And unchecking the Unity plugin wont break your desktop, I have purposely unchecked it, and it has been unchecked ever since Unity made its way into Ubuntu.

  • https://johnxx.startssl.com/ John Bloom

    I’ve been using Compiz for something like 6 years and using CCSM for quite a while as well (probably for almost the entire time it’s been available). In that time I’ve very rarely got myself into a situation I couldn’t get out of. In that same time period, normal Ubuntu upgrades have broken or reset my compiz config on upgrade numerous times, leaving me no way to get back to my old settings. If it was me I would just throw a dialog up when it’s run for the first time:”This will break your stuff. If that happens you get to keep both pieces
    [ x ] Got it!
    ( OK! ) (  Lead me back to safety )”

  • http://twitter.com/di0nysys Andrew Smith

    if people have the energy to build an entirely new tool, it can be improved.

  • http://twitter.com/di0nysys Andrew Smith

    I could swear what I wrote here was a reply to another comment, anyway, on its own the comment makes no sense, thus removed

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/YXKTFG2ZBOAHQNA464XXX5Q34Y Val

    To be honest when I first began using Ubuntu I installed CCSM to play with. I had no idea what I was doing and ending up breaking Unity completely. If super users want the program there are plenty of other sources out there to get CCSM that n00bs like I was at the time wouldn’t know how to use..

  • AneDijitak

    No.

  • Anonymous

    Never had a problem except unity crashing when changing a setting. But at that point all you have to do is log out or restart or something. but that’s not the configuration tools fault i wouldn’t think.

    I’m surprised this is even being thought about. what about fixing or removing software that has been dysfunctional for many releases. Many apps won’t even start.  This I think is primarily because linux doesn’t have a good installation method that allows the authors of software to have control over their users’ experience. Maintainers screw crap up and repos have old half working software because OSes have so much hubris thinking they can maintain every piece of software and take responsibility for it better than the author who made it. Well they never do keep good care of repos and it’s no fun to use old software or software that is just repackaged carelessly every release. I hope desktop projects, indexing/metadata systems (nepomuk/zeitgeist), and file browser projects start helping to develop, integrate, and support the app-image initiative. It’s a better dream.

  • http://funsurf-blog.blogspot.com/ Satyajit Sahoo

    Then what about people who don’t use Unity, but want to use compiz? no way to configure?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DPOGSGORE6X7F7QKRTDI5MPF74 ehsan

      its installable through PPA

  • Anonymous

    CCSM works like a charm now, so why remove it?
    I mean, it used to mess up the system in version 11.04 and 10.
    But compiz works fine in ubuntu 12.04

  • Ms. Polly

    If Ubuntu just goes with Gnome Shell by default and sticks with LTS releases everything will be better, thus no need for too many tools to configure Unity and more time to concentrate on stability and Gnome integration. Just my opinion, of course, and it won’t happen.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DPOGSGORE6X7F7QKRTDI5MPF74 ehsan

    I actually dont use CCSM since it broke unity the first time I installed 11.10 but I think its necessary to bring CCSM features like zoom and negative color of the desktop to the unity tweaking tools which will be on 12.04

  • Rickard Johansson

    Its still Linux but I trink ccsm shouldnt be instaleld by default but its shpuld be avalible in the repo and a more appopriate tweaking tool should be avalible by default.

  • Anonymous

    Computer Janitor could go on this list too, if it’s not already gone.

  • Anonymous

    The only thing ccsm breaks is Unity. How about fixing Unity then instead of removing CCSM. Mak Shuttleworth said if it was up to him there wouldn’t be so many options in CCSM. The removal may be related to this.

  • Ralph Bromley

    No stupid idea as it has a lot of configurations that cant be done via myunity

    plus you need it if you like having a custom desktop that is not unity or gnome sell based such as a awn panel sesseion

  • Anonymous

    god your dooming users who want somthing awesome on their desktop …

  • Alessandro L

    Are you kidding? How do i set my edge flippin’ and hot corners for productivity, it will makes me really upset if i have to waste time in other repos for the packages. And why? Cos it’s dangerous? So don’t step outside your door anything could harm you, and even your house isn’t safe, they’re getting paranoid and trying to reach dumbess to be upstream.

  • http://develop7.info/ develop7

    Build good replacement first.

  • Anonymous

    Don’t care option missing. Or more like, as long as there is a proper (i.e. official) Unity tweaking app out there, I don’t care.

  • Michal Gregor

    You know, I find the notion that “unsafe” packages containing bugs should be removed, when almost every component of the system has serious bugs, perfectly ridiculous. If we
    are going to remove all this dangerous software lets start by
    removing nvidia drivers and the x server which give me tearing… Do
    remove unity – lets face it, its buggy with ccsm or without it; and also it is not such a great loss, as after removing X and the nvidia drivers, we have no graphics anyway. Lets by all means
    remove nautilus: it crashes so often. Lets purge brasero, in fact lets delete every copy of its source code we can lay our hands on: the natty version of it has destroyed a number of my multisession CDs and in no release so far has it worked exactly as it should. Anyway, removing things that do not work is a very safe policy. In the end, we will be left with a nice empty hard drive, but it will be all the more safe and user friendly… and that is what we all want, isn’t it?

  • Thomas Rand

    make unity a SEPERATE entity

    i use xfce & want to use compiz so if ccsm is removed what exactly are the alternatives?

    everyone is talking about ‘power tools’ etc but ALL howto’s for compiz tell you to install it & change this & that so what do we use!

    to me i want a pure system but all these dumb ideas force a xfce environment to depend on something in gnome WTF!

    as others have said it is unity that is breaking compiz, so fix unity make it a seperate thing THEN re-evaluate the ccsm situation

    again list what the alternatives are or do you class a text editor as a power tool!

    • Anonymous

      I’d say your better off forking compiz and taking the Unity stuff out. Unity is the direction of compiz now.

  • http://twitter.com/JAMcNaughton James McNaughton

    I’d vote for a CCSM-Unity Edition to be packaged with Ubuntu.  Basically CCSM with all the options that can break the desktop when used with Unity removed.  Less work than making a new app from scratch.  If its  packaged then only the serious tweakers will bother to get the full version from the repos.

  • Peter Nel

    Is this really a CCSM problem, or is it a Compiz (feature) vs. Unity problem?

    I tend to evangelize Unity when the opportunity arises, and CCSM is often a workaround for some of the criticisms against Unity. I’ve learned to work around the ‘buggy’ compiz features, but have hoped to see improvements in future ubuntu releases…

    The Unity team chose to build Unity on Compiz, and IMO should take some responsibility for compatibility between the two systems. As others have mentioned, Compiz+CCSM worked before Unity. I’m not pointing fingers, but whatever and wherever the compatibility problems are (compiz, ccsm, unity?), they should be fixed – is it viable for the Unity guys to climb into the Compiz or CCSM code if needed, or if the problem indeed lies with Unity, to fix it there?

    We shouldn’t underestimate the value average users attach to personalized ‘bling’, regardless of its utility; /* not to mention corporate interests: these days, the very shape of a thing is worth millions in patent lawsuits ( – re: apple suit against samsung on rectangular design; lock-slide widget; etc.)*/

    I also think that moving CCSM to a PPA is not dealing with the real problem, it’s simply shifting the problem around, and creating some new ones, esp. for new users. The same people suggesting to new users to install ccsm from the standard repositories, would then just advise them to install it from the PPA’s – though now…
    1) all previous blogs and community generated support, howto’s, and tutorials will become obsolete;
    2) users must jump through extra hoops to get it installed;
    3) after installing it the same broken behavior will occur;
    4) I speculate: even more perceived loss of goodwill from Unity

    Many of the Compiz features do work. If MyUnity or UbuntuTweak covers all of them and all their settings, I suppose it alleviates things. But if effort is going to be spent on configurability, why not just fix what’s broken, and in the mean-time (temporarily) disable compiz features known to cause instability with Unity, when Unity is running.

    • Anonymous

      Unity is Compiz now, the few XFCE users are barely relevant.

  • Caner Dolas

    Dont remove it!!!!

  • Anonymous

    Let’s remove it. People will move to Mint in massive numbers since Mint will be sure to include it. Cannonical will go bankrupt thus Ubuntu as we know it disappears. Following, Mint as we know it will disappear too. A huge setback for Linux.

    Still shunning away from Ms people will find usable alternatives in Apple products. At first. Soon – but too late – they will find themselves trapped EULAs that deserve neither the ‘E’ ,’U’ or the ‘A’. Ms has long lost the ability to innovate, Apple will no longer see the need with their new found power. Digital revolution comes to an almost instant standstill.

    User interests are completely lost. Your tools will no longer work for you, you will work for them. ACTA, SOPA and PIPA are obsolete since your ability to use network connections will be limited by the hardware and software on your device.

    Having shut down any alternative and the internet as a whole, Linux is left devastated to the hands of quarrling amateurs. Sharing now means running back and forth with USB-sticks. Finally, Gnome developers will arrogantly move to BSD in an attempt to move desktop users’ paradigms.

    No, sure go ahead, remove it from the repos.

  • http://profiles.google.com/houdas.rodolphe Rodolphe Houdas

    Aircrak is in the repos. Is Canonical going to remove it because some users can use it to hack a wifi network ? Is Canonical responsible of what users do ? I don’t think.

    Keep CCSM ! It’s not installed by default, you have to know what it is to install and use it. It’s not tweaking apps that are dangerous for the system, it’s the user.

    • Anonymous

      Can a user who is not tech savvy accidentally break their own system in a attempt to have a firey mouse pointer by using air crack?
      Can no one come up with an analogy works?

  • Benjamin Siegert

    I think leaving CCSM in the repositories would not be a problem, since
    newby users won’t install it anyway. The only problem are half-savvy
    users which have heard about this configuration tool and accidently break their systems after using it.

    Tools like MyUnity and Ubuntu Tweak are excellent, but they are missing
    options for changing shortcuts and other stuff like the duration of animations. Personally I don’t want to wait 300 ms until my desktop is
    exposed, so these are the first things that I change after a fresh install.

    IMHO the main problem is the lack of documentation for unity.
    Most users that come to unity for the first time do not even know the existence of the super button and the
    related benefits and shortcuts. The display of the different shortcuts in
    Precise when pressing is an excellent help, but nobody presses super.
    That’s a fact.

    I would welcome an introduction tool that pops up after a fresh install
    and guides the new users to using unity’s dash and the launcher and all the shortcut stuff.
    I think the more people know about these really helpful features, the more unity gets popular. I know KDE and Gnome shell have similar features, but they have the same problem regarding documentation.

  • http://nosheep.org.ua Алексей Раю

    Should only get removed if there’s a equal config solution available.

    • Anonymous

      It’s called gconf-editor.

      • http://nosheep.org.ua Алексей Раю

        Isn’t it like “Edit windows registry”? Geeks only?

        • Anonymous

          Nah, kind of similar, but the Windows registry is much more complicated, and controls all kinds of weird system stuff. Gconf are just user application settings.
          If you open gconf editor and go to apps>compiz-1>plugins you can browse all the options available to you in CCSM.
          Instead of having sliders to change stuff you just edit the number out of 100.. etc. There are tick boxes to turn something on and off and so on.

  • http://twitter.com/beirvn Ben

    How about warning users trying to install software that is broken (has a large number of critical bugs) instead of removing it?

    Put a warning in the software centre and make the user confirm that they still want to install it.

  • Mathieu Beliveau

    Ubuntu needs a consolidated way to manage it’s wm settings and while ubuntu-tweak is a step forward in that direction (although it’s actually parallel to gnome’s settings) it currently lacks a lot of options that, although potentially “dangerous” to clueless users, CCSM does provide an easy access for. 

    Now what’s with that idea of removing potentially dangerous options  if those options do provide some added functionality and are not pushed to the user. There’s nothing more frustrating than a limited environment that restricts a person as soon as he/she evolves to more sophisticated ways of interaction (hell I’d like that trend to stop in ubuntu – what’s so evil about an “advanced options” panel?). Then, aside from some maintenance cost, I honestly don’t see why CCSM should be removed; the option is there, it’s not obtrusive to anyone so why remove it? Especially: why remove it when there’s nothing that currently provides a proper replacement?

  • Andreas Mieritz

    Voted that it should be removed. I know that people (myself included) will hold back with terminal commands, but won’t hold back if there’s a gui. As such, if it can break unity it shouldn’t be there by default. I’m more for blocking it than removing it though, so advanced users can unblock it again.

  • http://profiles.google.com/animaletdesequia Dàrent Animaulet

    That’s Ubuntu lately: If something is not working well, don’t repair it, remove it… f***ing sad…

    • http://profiles.google.com/animaletdesequia Dàrent Animaulet

      And by the way, ccsm never caused me any trouble, not even when I was new to gnu/linux. I has a backup function and all. Unity doesn’t.

  • http://twitter.com/Rezildans Das Volkan

    Captian Obvious: “this is an article on demand from Canonical HQ”.

    For several years, Compiz Fusion was the most admired piece of code that attracted many Windows users (including me) and made them say “woahh”. It’s even way better than Mac OS X’s famous QE desktop effects and never gave me a problem in the good old Gnome 2.xx days.

    You force everyone to use an immature DE called Unity. That’s it. OK, it’s a good challenge to create an original layout and I know someday it will be a superb working environment, but it’s still not ready for the masses.

    Whatever, thank god there’s KDE4 and other alternatives (Xface, LDE etc.).

  • Themis Paras

    Although CCSM has crashed my desktop 2 times, a novice user can simply not install it. So, ccsm must remain at the ubuntu repositories. For novice users there should simply be a warning at the USC.

  • Mladen Mijatov

    This is just bull-crap. CCSM had its issues but it was usable. Whole fiasco began with addition of Unity. Next story will be that Gnome is a problem for Unity and that it should be removed. After that, all users will be stupid and Unity is great.

    • Anonymous

      CCSM just took Gconf and made it easy to use for simpletons.
      If anything removing CCSM will encourage capable users to be less stupid by learning how to navigate and edit gconf.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_VWKDYGJOF23MM4G7XRXP6DRJEQ David .

    This is madness. SOME people like to uncheck Unity. These people find that rather than ‘break’ their desktop, it’s the first step towards having a pre-Unity desktop, with the original alt-tab and shift-tab and juicy flame effect window transitions!

  • Anonymous

    gg

  • Samuel Orr

    My opinion on the matter is obviously not that important as I am not involved with Ubuntu. However I think that having such tools available for optional install does not pose a threat to anything. A user that understands it will seek to use it and be glad it is available.

    The only motive I can think of is a lack of a desire to maintain ccsm or perhaps a conflict of interest. Meaning that they will need to ‘make ccsm work’ even if it is against their approach for compiz/unity. Just is all just supposition of course.

    CCSM is developed upstream by compiz correct? Why dice up Compiz farther from it’s upstream profile unless you have to?

  • Marc Santos

    Replace CCSM with a tool that works, sounds good to me. I know when I started using Unity and decided install CCSM it felt like a crap shoot trying to figure out which options would not break my desktop or cause performance issues. I would love to see a all in one tool for adjusting or tweaking settings for the Unity desktop that would not break anything. Also hope that they make a setting to allow the moving of the Unity launcher from the left to the bottom. One thing I do not like is having to go to 2-3 different apps to adjust my desktop to my preference. Make a real control center that would house all these settings.  I know that would be good a new user to Ubuntu. Currently as stated you have My Unity, Ubuntu Tweak, some use Gnome tweak. Keep in mind these tools are not installed by default either so is the current state of the Ubuntu Desktop really user friendly for new users to Ubuntu which is a primary target audience, you know users from Windows switching over to Ubuntu Linux. This type of thing needs to be changed and changed soon so a new users is not trying to figure all this stuff out, so they do not get to the point and giving up because they had to install 2 or 3 apps to make changes to there desktop that they want or need done to comfortably use it. Just my 2 cents on all this.

  • Anonymous

    I am Using CCSM with Unity, and I have no Problems with it! Of course you can damage your System with CCSM, but just when you change Plug-in- Settings you dont know. The Unity-Plugin works well for me!

  • ludwig.beuttel

    I broke my desktop about three times when using ccsm, but I still love the tool, a simple warning would be mutch better.

  • Anonymous

    Just dont make it visible in the software centre but allow users to use apt-get to install it, problem solved

  • Anonymous

    CCSM is a bag of spanners and should be replaced, sure.  The problem is that the Unity devs will only replace the bits they feel are important.  The bits I feel are important will be stripped away in Ubuntu’s Gnome-like purge of all options.

    Activate Wobbly windows, activate active resize, change most CTRL-ALT keybinds to use SuperKey instead, Activate SuperZoom, tweak moving windows to have 90% opaque, set refresh rate to 60Hz (or break AMD cards), tweak window placement to centre, activate extra-animations, then activate Burn for close windows.

    How many of those options will Ubuntu code into the CCSM replacement?

    I’m guessing… not all of them. So I’ll still need a bag of spanners for every install I do.

  • http://twitter.com/heikkiket Heikki Ketoharju

    I admit ccsm is a problem. It’s always problematic, when I’m trying to modify my Unity desktop with it: Compiz crashes, Unity won’t load properly and so on…

    On the other hand: I want to change few shortcuts, I want to bind Scale to left upper corner of my screen (to achieve Gnome 3 -like experience), and I want to change icon size in Launcher.

    So if someone could make an another tool for this job, I don’t resist. But I voted ‘no’, because in general there is many tools in the repos, that are very useful for someone, whilst can be dangerous to someone else. So please just “stop telling people to use it” or “add a warning” :)

  • Bruno Pereira

    CCSM is a very powerful tool, we should be allowed to have tools that allow us to config, tweak and re-tweak what ever we want in a desktop environment the way we want.

    Having said that CCSM is broken, its a bad tool, its a tool where a wrong click, a mouse wheel spin, the wrong value inputted in a box breaks your desktop. It should work, its powerful, but it does not and does more harm then good.

    If a user knows how to use a PPA wants to use it he can install it by himself, but something that broken should not be shared on a distro that aims for quality and good support.

    Sure for some fixing a broken desktop is no big deal but for most users
    starting with Linux that is enough to either quit or have a nightmare
    experience on their first try.

    No one wants to press a button that says “press here to apply this nice effect” but instead breaks your desktop, no one wants something that does not do what it says it will and has so potential to do wrong.

    If a tool works and has bugs, fix it. If the bugs are so devastating and can break things so bad that fast fix it fast or replace it. Since fixing CCSM has proven to be hard give us another option. I would not mind to have 3 buttons that worked instead of 10 that could randomly cause havoc.

    Packages come and go everyday, big deal, that thing is broken and should not be there. Please let them fix it or find a better more stable alternative but sharing something that problematic is idiotic to say the least.

  • http://twitter.com/uh8myzen Jaden Kor

    Like it or not, Ubuntu wants to compete with Apple and Windows… a market in which the vast majority are novice users who wouldn’t know what a terminal was if you drew a picture, much less gconf.  As such, the OS needs to be made as idiot proof as possible… little thing called user friendly.  Thus, apps that break the desktop scare those users away and Ubuntu alienates its target market.

    Ubuntu as an OS made its choice, so power users need to either live with it or move to a real power user OS .. ie Gentoo or Arch.

    But hell, I always thought that power users didn’t need pretty graphic apps in the first place?!?!

    • Anonymous

      Exactly, there is no such thing as a power user who “NEEDS” CCSM.

  • Ubul Vendró

    Mamma mia… should be mkfs removed from repositories???

    • Bruno Pereira

      No, it works has advertised, there are no issues with that…

    • Anonymous

      Poor analogy.
      mkfs is a commandline tool which needs to be ran as root.
      CCSM is a  graphical application available in the software centre and can be installed without having to go to the commandline once.
      To have an adequate disclaimer when launching CCSM it would read:

      “Warning this application alters settings for your window manager, unfortunately it is not aware of the limits of your window manager, and you may inadvertently create conflicts or exceed the limitations of your window manager using this tool. and cause your window manager to crash, when the window manager reloads it will encounter the same settings and crash again. At this point you will no longer be able to use this tool to revert your settings, and will need commandline knowledge to rescue your system.”

      After reading that any sensible person would ask. Then why the hell do you provide the tool for me?

      • Ubul Vendró

        Ok, do you want a tool which should be removed because of potentially dangerous? Remove dd from the system and from the repositories as users can use it and can overwrite their home directory, which is important for them.

        Furthermore, ccsm is not the part of default installation, so most of the users don’t install and use it. If you think that ccsm is not compatible with Unity, then repair it or remove the possibility to turn off Unity plugin. There are a lot of other – and better – solution. This one could be the worst.

        “After reading that any sensible person would ask. Then why the hell do you provide the tool for me?”

        He can ask also: why don’t you provide me an Office which is 100% compatible with my proprietary one? Do you take care of it? Not really, I think…

  • https://launchpad.net/~grzesiek1e5 Grzegorz G.

    Users should be capable of doing everything.  Just show them the warning (most of them will be scared and click “OK, THX for the warning, I won’t even touch it then.”) and if they  clicked “Yes, I’m aware”, log this fact.  This makes them ready for clicking “No”, when some unknown window pops up and asks “Do you want to install a virus?”. 

    • http://profiles.google.com/harveycabaguio Harvey Cabaguio

      Users don’t read.

  • Anonymous

    CCSM is a usability nightmare, and just a front end to gconf.
    Get rid of it, replace it with something that does all the basic settings everyone needs, and for people who want to do more obscure stuff they can use gconf-editor.
    This is not taking away peoples ability to do stuff, it’s jettisoning a broken and deprecated package.
    Also why is compiz still using gconf, won’t it be ported to dconf at some point?

    • Cliff Wells

      I don’t think anyone would argue with replacing it, since it could clearly use some help in the usability department.  But removing and replacing are two different verbs.  I didn’t see anyone offering a usable replacement at this point.

  • Amartya Datta Gupta

    Really, its not possible to build something which no one can break. That way, we will be left with with a toaster, not a computer. CCSM is a great tool. Plus CCSM does gives warnings about conflicting plugins. It can be improved upon, but certainly doesnt deserve to be removed from official repos !!

  • Zombifier

    Just add a warning to ccsm’s description and that will scare off 99% of the novices away. Problem solved.

  • http://profiles.google.com/devin.a.hudson Devin Hudson

    Bad worded poll is bad worded.

    Potentially damaging apps, and and a finicky tools like CCSM thats still needed while Unity is still Growing-into-its-britches are different.

    Reductio ad absurdum Also XFCE, LXDE, KDE, and others still need that tool.

  • http://twitter.com/ZacharyJuang Zachary Juang

    There should definitely be an idiot-proof version of CCSM. Or else some “uneducated” user like me will kill the system thinking that I’m doing something harmless to tweak it.

  • Joe Brown

    I’ve used CCSM and I don’t really like it.  It makes Unity crash (for me), so after I did that a couple of times, I decided to leave it to the dedicated few.  On that note, just because it crashes your WM doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be able to download it from the Ubuntu repos.  Is it a stability issue?  Is it a Window Manager issue?  I don’t know, I’m not the expert.  But there are folks out there that love the customization it allows, so why remove it?  As long as its not in the default install, it’s not going to affect (effect?) a lot of people beyond those of us who insist on customizing EVERYTHING.

    • Anonymous

      CCSM doesn’t allow you to do something otherwise impossible it just makes it easy for less technical users.
      If your argument is that less technical users shouldn’t be messing around with that stuff but more technical users should be able to do that, then removing CCSM is the perfect solution because it creates a barrier to entry.
      A technical user can edit everything that can be edited in CCSM using gconf-editor.
      Back in the day in 2006/2007 when hordes of people were converting to linux in droves on the popularity of compiz gconf-editor was how everyone did it. And many of these were new users fresh from windows, anyone with the will and ability to customize will manage it.

  • saurav das

    to remove such an old handy our beloved tool first make an identical compatible to unity one first…

  • Ken Ash

    This has become so out of control with Ubuntu there just are no words for it. Ubuntu  looks to be imploding in on itself at a astronomical rate, and has become a runaway train without brakes.  In its current state Ubuntu is critically broken. So broken and disconnected from everyone that utterly with every update now, guaranteed, software brakes and stops working. A must to turn off update manager.  All this talk and focus on new users seems to be the biggest  excuses for “every unprecedented”  change since unity.  Unity has been out for a long time folks! were are all the new users???? were is all the talk about the new users ubuntu has gained since Unity?????  There are none, at least not on the scope shuttleworth says.  I’ve been all over the web doing research on new users and unity cant find anything in regards to new users.  But what i do find is strife over un deeded changes with ubuntu  with the same old excuses. ” This is for noobs, This is to help Noobs ets”.  I came from windows not knowing one spec about Ubunt Linux back when 7.04 was released, were was Unity then?  i brought many windows users to ubuntu when there was no Unity, They all learned and never damaged there systems and thats saying alot with a windows user. Were all getting stabbed in the back. What we should all do is just stop using ubuntu, not just change desktops, move to mint, arch,  collectively as a community we can stop canonical in its tracks or continue letting one person speak for the entire user base and hence we all end up here expressing emotion, support, dislike, defending, giving relevance to ones stance. 

    • Anonymous

      *insert tiny violin playing sad song*

      • Ken Ash

        pick your song

        • Anonymous

          The world’s saddest song

      • Ken Ash

        Who knows what 12.04 will be like, you can only hope for the best. 10.04 lts has become so broken on my machines after each update critical business software stopped working and we have time to go yet till end of life. backing up software and re installing inflamed the situation, we regressed back to a earlier release just to use our software. Once there, updated manager was turned off.  My point is we have lost stability even with the LTS business release. If buy your comment reflects a honest testimonial from the business world, Canonical bread and butter, there is no fix, no future. This is sad so sad.

  • http://openid-provider.appspot.com/TheMerkinman Merk

    Wouldn’t the best option be to figure out what Unity feature(s) of CCSM people use and get them put into MyUnity, Ubuntu Tweak or System Settings?
    Then you can have CCSM remove its Unity tweaking and have CCSM remove the Unity package upon installation.

  • http://twitter.com/ux92 uvazquez

    I don’t think apps like that should be removed, but they should be under an “unstable” or “only for expers” section.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1645382940 Красимир Стефанов

    “Should Potentially Damaging Apps like CCSM Be Removed from the Ubuntu Repos?”

    First: DEFINE what “Potentially Damaging” means. And who will decide which apps are “Potentially Damaging”?
    One big part of the apps in the repositories can be “damaging”  – even the file manager. For example, you can “damage” your system, by accidentally deleting your files. This sound pretty damaging to me… Let’s remove the file manager.
    Not to forget the Terminal – it’s the most “damaging” app in Ubuntu (I wonder how many users screwed their systems by blindly following some commands frome some forum…)
    Removing CCSM from the repositories is wrong. It sets a bad precedent.

  • Anonymous

    I’d put them in a seperate repository (like main, universe, multiverse, …) which is then disabled by default, and can be enabled by the user if wanted.

  • Anonymous

    I’m getting really depressed by Ubuntu’s sudden willingness to drop all kinds of packages from its repositories. Makes me feel all the better for choosing Arch.

    Of course, Ubuntu users are usually new users, and new users don’t read documentation or understand the Linux ecosystem- they just get stuff. CCSM features prominently in many old Linux blog posts, so it’s likely they could install it ‘on accident’.

    I think it would make more sense to attach a warning to significantly unuseful/dangerous applications that have outlasted their stay. I just think this habit is dangerous- packages like GNOME-Documents were completely ignored last release. If Ubuntu ever started using KDE as its main environment, does that mean all GNOME users would be left out in the cold?

    If a community like Arch can package stable software at the rate they do without significant hiccups, I don’t see what Ubuntu’s community has to worry about.

  • http://twitter.com/jrdn_v Jordan Vasquez

    I personally believe that CCSM should be replaced if it does break the system.  You guys need to realize that if Ubuntu is going to get bigger than it already is, which we all want, then it has to be able to deal with users who don’t know what they’re doing.  If Ubuntu is going to go mainstream, it needs to make sure that the main repos don’t have anything that could break the system.  

    Besides, maybe Canonical can create another repo for apps such as CCSM that pose a threat to breaking Ubuntu.

  • http://hector-macias.blogspot.com Hector Macias Ayala

    I dont give a damn about stupid MyUnity, CCSM is totally ok for me, Im not switching to any other BS program for noobs.

  • Rafael Rojas

    Seems more like an issue between compiz and unity more than CCSM and unity/ubuntu, CCSM is just a frontend for the plugins, effects and eyecandy that compiz haves. I think that the Ubuntu devs should fork compiz to slim it down to a unity friendly set of effect instead of playing with stock-available-in-every-distro compiz then they can make a CCSM-ish tool to tweak it

    By now, removing CCSM is a bad idea, is the only tool to tweak some specific things on the desktop, so as long there is not another alternative with all the range of options that CCSM haves, i will not suggest to remove that tool

    • http://twitter.com/jspaleta Jef Spaleta

      This is the hidden cost of Canonical’s chosen development model to build their differentiated platform offering that is now being branded as Unity. But this was happening long before Unity existed as a brand. Canonical made significant vendor patches to several GNOME components for the differentiated Ubuntu Classic desktop.

      To save upfront development costs, Canonical has tried to adapt as much pre-existing technology stack as possible. Technology stacks designed and implemented outside of Canonical’s direct control.

      There’s nothing inherently wrong with that. But it does come at a cost…especially when done in the scope of the larger Ubuntu project where there is a community of users who are using the same set of technologies in the scope of other interface deliverable that are not branded as Unity.  Myopic focus on the Unity desktop as a primary usage case  will absolutely impact compiz as a stand alone window manager to be used layered if there isn’t the manpower upstream to care about those other usage cases.

      The 0.8 Compiz series was a popular stand-alone window manager that was suitable for cross desktop usage. But everyone needs to face the fact that the compiz 0.9 series as it stands right now is a different sort of project and is being driven by Unity development needs.  There is no judgement in that. It is a statement of fact.  Project roadmaps and priorities are necessarily crafted by those who show up to do the work. How much manpower is going into keeping compiz upstream maintained as a stand alone window manager to be used in other environments?

      Compiz as a project was effectively on life support before Canonical picked it up as a 2nd attempt at creating a Unity branded interface.  It’s time to face the music. Compiz is a bit of the Unity3d stack now and is no longer effectively developed or maintained as a stand alone window manager.  You shouldn’t even be thinking about the plugins as compiz plugins anymore. You should probably be thinking of them entirely as Unity plugins at this point and jettisoning all the plugins that don’t make any sense for Unity as a deliverable.

      -jef

  • Anonymous

    Yes CCSM should be purged. I had broke my system when I had 11.04 due to CCSM. CCSM is for experts, newbies will end-up in breaking their system,

    • Anonymous

      How come is CCSM’s fault that you, the USER, broke your system?.

      Because you didn’t know what the… you were doing ?

  • Anonymous

    I agree. CCSM is pretty hazardous, and it shouldn’t be chilling out in the repos like it’s just another basic preferences tool. Anybody who wants to do some hardcore configuring can find it with a quick google search; there’s no need for it in the repositories. The repositories are really for more basic general use programs, pretty cut and dry. Break-your-computer-by-clicking-a-checkbox programs don’t need to be there.

  • Anonymous

    No need to be uncouth, dude.

  • Anonymous

    “Perhaps Ubuntu should beef-up its accessibility settings pane, or a
    dedicated accessibility settings app created that houses these?”

    at the pace of Unity, its going to be 3-4 more versions  before that happens. Until then, just leave it be.

  • Cliff Wells

    I think a more favorable solution would be to make CCSM and Unity packages mutually exclusive.  Installing one uninstalls the other.   This would allow Ubuntu to pursue their vision while allowing people who think that vision is um… not good… to continue to freely tweak their systems as they please.

    • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

      That sounds like a great solution, I’ll talk to the desktop team about it.

      • Anonymous

        Wait, would this mean unity users couldn’t even use ccsm installed from a ppa? That must not happen. Just come out and say that it will be put in a ppa, show us that ppa, and this whole issue will be cleared up.

        • http://castrojo.tumblr.com Jorge Castro

          No one has made any decisions about anything at all, there’s no reason to panic.  I have no idea who would put ccsm in a ppa.

          • Anonymous

            Right. Just saying that when the decision is made, if you do that it looks like you’ll make everyone here happy.. Or at least appeased :-)

          • Anonymous

            Right. Just saying that when the decision is made, if you do that it looks like you’ll make everyone here happy.. Or at least appeased :-)

            You’ve said that ccsm breaks even if you know what you’re doing, but that’s really not the case. It’s fine if it’s not as readily available. But it’s a good tool for those that know it and we should still be able to get at it. I think that’s what you’re saying, but it doesn’t look like you’re glad that it’s a helpful tool for some people.

          • Cliff Wells

            Since the exclusion would be a packaging option, there could be a PPA that provided a non-conflicting version of CCSM.  

            What I’m suggesting (and Jorge seems to like) is that CCSM remain available in Universe repo but the official version would conflict with Unity.  

            As an aside, having an official, conflicting, package would make it easier for someone to port that package and offer a non-conflicting version in a PPA, since the maintenance of the package would already be done.  Then power-users and crackheads could tweak whatever they like at their own peril.

            It’s really win-win.

          • Anonymous

            Gotcha. I like it and am fine with it, but it doesn’t make sense to me since Jorge and others are saying that ccsm breaks things even without Unity (even though I’ve never broken anything with it).

  • http://twitter.com/natrixgli natrixgli

    Don’t purge it, just make it show up under “Show XX Technical Items”. I agree it shouldn’t be encouraged because it can screw up some things pretty easily. 

  • http://twitter.com/natrixgli natrixgli

    Also purge Compiz. It is horribly unstable on SandyBridge machines with rampant display corruption and WM crashes. Mutter, on the other hand, works quite well.

  • http://profiles.google.com/nishantagrwal12993 Nishant Agrwal

    “Unity currently seems to be the main attraction to ccsm”

    there you have it. with configuration options for unity provided, novice users won’t need to use ccsm anymore. problem solved

  • Michal Gregor

    To express my feeling towards your notion quite euphemistically:  I couldn’t possibly agree. I have been using CCSM for years without a problem. Even if the introduction of compiz 0.9.x and unity did make it more buggy, I can always sort any problems out in no time. However, I do not have the slightest idea as to how I can do the same using gconf-editor. Actually, I would argue that doing that would be quite incomparably more dangerous than using CCSM.

    • Anonymous

      The question is.
      In the event that you use CCSM to make some changes, compiz crashes, you reboot, now every time you log in compiz crashes immediately.
      You can’t load up CCSM to undo what you did.

      What do you do next?
      Do you personally know what to do, remember you have no web browser to google it with.

      If you don’t know what to do, then using CCSM is dangerous for you.

  • http://twitter.com/orgulho_geek Orgulho Geek

    Power users can find another way to install CCSM.
    When I was a novice, several times I broke my Desktop with CCSM.
    When a novice user take those tools and broke their systems, they don’t know how to restore it, then, they blame Ubuntu, not the tool.

    People who knows what they’re doin’ always can find a way to get what they want.

    Keep CCSM away from new users, until it does not break the graphical user interface.

  • Anonymous

    I suggest that compiz should be compiled into a stripped down version with less plugins and renamed and packaged under a different name such as unity-wm so it has a seperate set of gconf keys under /apps/unity-wm.
    Then package it up and put it in the repos alongside the compiz package, make the ubuntu-desktop package depend on unity-wm instead of compiz.This way downloading CCSM and editing gconf keys using it won’t make any difference to unity-wm and will only make a difference if you do “compiz –replace”.If this crashes when a user logs out and back in it will automatically revert to unity-wm unless they change /usr/share/gnome-session/sessions/ubuntu.session to use compiz by default.

    It also has the added advantage of allowing you to use a different compiz set up for non Unity DE’s.

    And since your not forking compiz, just setting some different options while doing ./configure everyone benefits from improvements.

    • http://twitter.com/jspaleta Jef Spaleta

      This makes sense as long as compiz as an upstream project has enough manpower interest to keep it a viable stand-alone window manager.  It’s not clear that this is true. Development focus is heavily Unity oriented. Are the developers who are still interested in supporting a userbase outside of the Unity config?

      -jef

      • Anonymous

        As far as I can tell the only guy actively working on it is smspillaz who works for the Canonical DX team.. So I’m guessing Compiz for none Unity users is basically dead.
        However this solution does also make sense from the perspective of fixing the “CCSM problem” while still allowing advanced users to run unity on top of stock compiz with all the trimmings if they so chose.
        I presume what you mean though is that a real fork of compiz makes more sense.
        Which it probably does, but you know and I know what the community would say about Canonical if they forked compiz. It would be a PR disaster.

        “Evil canonical sucks life blood out of projects and casts them to the way side”

        • http://twitter.com/jspaleta Jef Spaleta

          “Canonical gives new life and new direction to project originated by Novell”

          This actually wouldn’t be the first time such a headline would be relevant. They did it with AppArmor as well.

          There’s no silverbullet to the PR problem created by promising to be everything to everybody.  There is an art to underpromising and overdelivering and setting expectations just lower than what is achievable with available resources. 

          The problems being discussed with CCSM are a symptom of deliverable expectations not matching achievable development reality.  Either resources spent on compiz need to increase, or the vision of what compiz can pragmatically deliver needs to be reduced to something manageable. Unity as a single interface target for compiz maybe manageable.  Compiz as a stand-alone wm is not.

          We are far from the heady days of the Compiz/Beryl fork with competing development communities trying to build compelling roadmaps for the future of the codebase. Compiz as a wm is effectively dead.  It died well before Canonical picked it up as a scaffolding for the Unity interface.

          -jef

  • http://twitter.com/adammw Adam M-W

    What about those wanting to ditch Unity and use compiz on a Gnome desktop? How are those people going to tweak the bling?

  • http://twitter.com/zzecool zzecool

    @castrojo:disqus  I dare you  to screencapture  anything that can brake your desktop using CCSM  Do it using a Virtual machine or anything …. 

    You know all the problems are based on unity plugin that cant restart  in a proper way….   so if you left with only a wallpaper … its the unity plugin and purging CCSM doesnt help ..

    I i told you before  try to run “unity –replace”  8 in 10 times unity fails to restart………………………………     lets kill CCSM instead of fix unity ……

    Stupidity is unbeatable .-

    • Anonymous

      I have nothing against unity but I find it very disappointing to see unity zealots using dirty tricks to impose their views.
      ‘OK, now let’s remove everything that unity breaks’ (instead of fixing it.) Wow, that’s a taliban mentallity.

  • http://twitter.com/okolnost okolnost

    If something should be ditched from repos, it is Unity. CCSM saved my desktop several times after problematic Ubuntu upgrade, moving me from classic desktop to that awful Unity stuff.

  • dakira

    Hey, a quick question. I’ve got really bad flickering in videos and games and everything seems really choppy.

    Now, I just open CCSM, set “sync to vblank” and adjust the refresh-rate to a value that can devided by my actual vertical refresh rate (60Hz). Problem solved.

    How do I easily solve this without CCSM?

  • Matt Cross

    Well then give me the loaded gun. The gun in this case being CCSM is not the issue. The is between keyboard and chair as always. I tweak compiz with CCSM out of the fact that it is quicker to tweak, be able to see the results. I never assume any system tool is 100 stable as that is just stupid to think. No piece of software is 100% stable.

    I use Unity on a daily basis and I use compiz on KDE instead of KWin. When I can change settings on Compiz on a desktop environment that is not specifically building around it. And I get better results on KDE then Unity when I tweak something via CCSM. That tells me one thing that Unity is the issue with CCSM not CSSM. Just a quick example of what I mean.  On Unity I dislike the default zooming out for the virtual desktops. I personally prefer the vortex option that CCSM offers me. Change it to that on Unity you get one big black screen for a desktops view. Do that on KDE however it works as it should. That is just one small example of the Unity being the issue not CCSM. Which when I think about it is pretty said as Unity is built around Compiz.

    • http://twitter.com/Soul_Sample Kristijan Puljek

      This. I’ve never had problems with CCSM before Unity came along. I love Unity, but the fact that Unity doesn’t play well with CCSM is no reason to remove it. Add a warning or fix it, but don’t remove it.

  • https://launchpad.net/~antonio.chiurazzi steveacab

    #Jorge Castro
    why remove ccsm? there is no sense.
    Is better include by default MyUnity. If I have yet a tool to configure my session I dont need to install another tool (ccsm).

    otherwise nobody can test the experimental plugins if there isn’t ccsm in the repos.

    I think that this is the best option.

  • http://www.thekiplingconspiracy.co.uk christiegrinham

    The title of the poll is deliberately against CCSM. You should ask whether CCSM itself should be removed like the article suggests, not “apps like CCSM”.

  • Marco Bluethgen

    I think this is not the right question. The right question should be – Why are the whole functionality not integrated in system settings. As a user I would look for settings right there. Different setting tools for customizing the system get on my nerves.

  • Ubul Vendró

    Is really CCSM a problem? Is it only the application which is buggy? Is Unity already in the final state? Does it have the possibility to customize it as CCSM has?

    Unity requires a lot of system resources – maybe this should be first solved, after then the customization options…

  • Anonymous

    Unity conflicts with compiz and makes it crap, lets remove unity from the repos

    • Anonymous

      Successful troll is successful.

  • Anonymous

    CCSM isn’t the problem, but Compiz is. Compiz has always been unstable since it was introduced in 6.06.

    Canonical should make it’s own window manger when Wayland comes to town.

  • Anonymous

    TL;DR.

    • Anonymous

       Since when do the monkeys read?

  • vasil valchev

    This tool is great, but lagging make me migrate to gnome 3 + cairo dock :D Its eye-candy like unity but its faster and i feel it stronger to care on me. The first 2 days was terrible but whit time its feel allot more comfortable desctop expiration.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/OA4FYZYIAQOU7753ZC3HFTGV5M May

    Please don’t remove CCSM from repo. Just tell bloggers not to include CCSM in their “10 Things to do after installing Ubuntu xx.xx.

  • Anonymous

    Just like Synaptic, just keep it from the default install.

  • Chris Kildegaard

    Here’s an idea: MAKE A DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT THAT COMPIZ DOESN’T BREAK!!! If they’d stop trying to make something that runs on Compiz, then tweaking Compiz wouldn’t break it! Why not just have a big warning box that reads:

    “ATTENTION: Changing the settings contained within this program may break Ubuntu’s Unity interface. When using Compiz Config Settings Manager (CCSM), use extreme caution.”

  • http://profiles.google.com/nik8pol Nick & Paul .

    It should not be removed…It’s a BIG MISTAKE .They can just place a warning message at startup showing something like “USE AT YOUR OWN RISK” 

  • Marko Doda

    CCSM is ugly and confusing, looks like a hacked up interface exposing some wierd options. everything that needs to be setup should be in system settings and the options that can brake something exposed trough gconf.

  • Anonymous

    That’s not just stupid. That’s INSANE.

    Linux world is not just Unity. Ubuntu is not just Unity (yet?). If Unity is broken (and in fact it is) – fix Unity. If Unity is conflicting with other apps (that’s also a well-known fact) – fix Unity. Do they even think that there’s Ubuntu users who do NOT use Unity? Do they want them go away?

    The most dangerous apps in repos are: su, sudo, sux, gksu, gksudo. And I hope Ubuntu devs are not going to drop them.

    But if Mark’s going to “remove” advanced users from his distro, he is on the right way.

  • Anonymous

    CCSM does work. Have you ever seen it? It is Unity that is broken.

  • Anonymous

    That’s exactly what I saw when I ran Unity for the first time. Now, I didn’t have CCSM then. If you want Windows-like OS with simgle UI and some 3rd-party addons – go on.

  • https://launchpad.net/~tim.timwahrendorff rakete

    I don’t get it, ccsm never broke my desktop, but ubuntu Tweak did it several times!
    I am totally confused about this “news”… Please help!

  • Zhengda Du

    it will be better if you can replace it with a similar app.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Insperatus James P. Harding

    Removing CCSM won’t change anything whatsoever for power users.  The question is whether this starts a trend of more carefully examining what is and isn’t allowed in the repos.  

    I think reorganizing the repos is not a terrible thing to do.  Maybe the apps with issues (like CCSM) could be put into their own repo which must be added manually.  This way programs removed from the official Main or Universe repositories would still be available from a single source.  PPAs are great but no one wants to have dozens of them.  Rather than having to add individual PPAs for packages removed from the Main and Universe repos,  something like an Alt. Universe repository could be created to house the rejects not acceptable in Main or Universe.Regarding customization – this needs to be done from the system settings pane.  If a user wants merely to change the background color of the launcher or the size of the launcher icons, installing extra programs shouldn’t be necessary.  That seems flimsy and unprofessional.  I’m confident 12.04 or 12.10 will offer us many of the options we want – by default.  

    CCSM offers feature customization which no other program (to my knowledge) offers.  Put these settings in an ‘advanced’ section of system settings.  Let’s make it easier for new/regular users to discover how to customize.  That cogwheel…give it some more power.  Dump and gut CCSM and add all those plugin options into system settings.  Just make sure you include ‘reset to default’ buttons and the 15 second test you get as when switching display options.  There’s nothing wrong with idiot proof so long as that doesn’t mean limiting options for those who seek them.  

  • Juan Mares

    I use CCSM to fix screen flicker and other things not taken care of automagically @ point of install. I’m not looking for a Kiosk distro. Even windows7 and Mac OSX have a settings panel like this that with the wrong people pushing buttons can hose a pc, but that would make it hard for me to use ubuntu and setup ubuntu on family pc and have them work right. Man I feel like ubuntu is making me paddle up a river without a paddle. 

    Sucks this is my first post and it has to be a negative one. 

  • Tim Drumheller

    I don’t think it should be removed from the repositories.  It still serves a useful purpose to many users.

    There are a few things that I think should be done to protect users:

    1) Pick one of the safer tweaking tools and include it in the default installation, and integrate it into the main configuration panels where people can discover it easily.

    Many people like to tweak things, not just expert users (if only experts liked to tweak, we wouldn’t have problems with people breaking their systems with CCSM).  If you don’t give them an obvious, easy and safe way to do so, they’ll go to Google for answers.  In a rapidly changing software ecosystem, many of those answers may be outdated and/or dangerous.  If you remove CCSM from the repositories, the novice users will find it in a PPA, and once they discover PPAs, they’ll start installing all sorts of pre-release software without necessarily understanding that what they’re using isn’t a finished product.

    Give them what they want in a safe format, and they won’t go venturing into dangerous territory.

    2) Remove the Unity configuration settings from CCSM, so there’s no reason for people wanting to make simple Unity tweaks to accidentally discover CCSM.  Set up a web site that shows up early in the Google search results for various Unity tweaking terms (including CCSM) that clearly explains the proper way to configure Unity, and that messing with CCSM may cause severe Unity breakage.  Inexperienced users breaking Unity with CCSM are likely to finding out about it through searches, so make sure they find the safety warnings first.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Chase-Baggett/502688613 Chase Baggett

    You shouldn’t remove things from repos to remove control and “protect” users. The whole concept is flawed. Leave it uninstalled by default, but don’t keep it out of the repos. If the user wants to shoot themselves in the foot give them the bullets and help them calculate trajectory. That’s kinda the Linux way…

  • Anonymous

    I’m one of those noobs trying to switch from Windows to Linux. I’ve tried a number of distributions, and have settled in on Ubuntu despite some of its Unity warts.  Having been warned about CCSM through various forums, I used a combination of the lightweight tweaking tools (MyUnity, Ubuntu Tweak) to dial some things in.  They do what they were designed to do, and they do it safely.

    But the coolest, most useful feature on my laptop is the desktop cube spinner.  If this can be added as a core Unity feature, or made available in the lightweight tweaking tools, then I’d be OK with evaporating CCSM until it’s safe.

    Otherwise, leave it alone.